atheism is a (religious position)

[mikkel_the_dane]

Look up "myth". It does
not mean unevidenced or untrue.

We note though that you put religious
notions in with ideology, myth, and
most important, unevidenced.

People tend to have plenty of evidence
for their idologies. Many myths are demonstratably
true. Belief in ones ( see " flood) that are demonstrably
false is in no way comparable to n ideology like
liberalism.

What's important here is belief in
the supernatural. That's religion.
It takes some real weirdness to turn
not believing in the supernatural into
belief in the supernatural.


I don't believe in anything supernatural.
That's all it takes to be atheist.

As for clear sighted ( reasonable, objective)
it may be exceptional. It's noe existent in
the religious, for whom " faith" in the unevidenced
is a highest virtue.
Most people are like that.

So yeah, being sensitive does seem rare.

Yeah, so you have a totally reasonable and objective model of all of human behavior including your own. You are really special.

 

[Eddi]

Yeah and that is not all human behavior. So what is my general positive worldview based on what I have written in this thread?

Then I think you are mistaken as to how reality works...

Would you say that one's world view influences how one lives one's life? - if so, then that's another way of saying that one's God Concept influences how one lives one's life

You obviously hold a very personal God Concept that defies easy categorisation

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Then I think you are mistaken as to how reality works...

Would you say that one's world view influences how one lives one's life? - if so, then that's another way of saying that one's God Concept influences how one lives one's life

You obviously hold a very personal God Concept that defies easy categorisation

Well, what are my views on what the universe is and what matters as being a human?

 

[Eddi]

Well, what are my views on what the universe is and what matters as being a human?

I don't know, I don't know you that well, but I know you don't identify as either atheist or theist (because you said as much) which to me sounds like a very personal God Concept that defies easy categorisation

Answer me this: Do you worship God? If yes, then why? And if no, then why?

 

[Eddi]

OK, pull faces all you like...

Not collecting stamps is a societal status, it is a thing one is

Non-stamp collector is a valid category of person

My name is Ed and I am a non-stamp collector

Just as not believing in God is a societal status and is a thing one is - and a valid category of person

If not having a belief in God is a thing that gets to have its own name (Atheism) then not collecting stamps should also be a thing that gets its own name

However, we don't need to give not collecting stamps its own name though, as it is not important

We do however need to give not believing in God its own name, as that is important

Edit: and what goes for stamp collecting goes for believing in God

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't know, I don't know you that well, but I know you don't identify as either atheist or theist (because you said as much) which to me sounds like a very personal God Concept that defies easy categorisation

Answer me this: Do you worship God? If yes, then why? And if no, then why?

My God is a technical philosophical version based on ontological idealism of the non-personal kind. So as a deist my God is non-personal and non-revealed and in a sense neither natural nor supernatural in the standard sense.
So, no, there is nothing to worship in regards to God. I do consider humans scared, but that is a version of humanism.

 

[Eddi]

So, no, there is nothing to worship in regards to God.

Then in that case you don't perform a certain activity (worship) on account of your personal God Concept

Which would be an example of a person's God Concept influencing how they live their life - i.e. by not worshipping

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Then in that case you don't perform a certain activity (worship) on account of your personal God Concept

Which would be an example of a person's God Concept influencing how they live their life - i.e. by not worshipping

Yeah, everything is centered around God for you. I get that. So communism and anarcho-capitalism are both about God and nothing else.

 

[HonestJoe]

Premise 1: Having a God Concept makes any belief system....

Atheism isn't a belief system at all.

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

If atheism were a religion (or a "religious position"), by the same principles, that would imply that theism is too. That would mean that all theists hold the same "religious position" which is clearly not true.

In general, why are you apparently so keen to make atheism mean anything more than a simple description of a singular minor characteristic?

 

[Yerda]

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

Well done for taking in what people said and augmenting your beliefs. This isn't easy, as a million RF threads will confirm.

A quick way to check if "atheism is a ..." statements make sense is to replace atheism with theism and see the result. For example, "theism is a religion" would be suspect to anyone who understands what the word theism generally means to people. I think this line of reasoning holds up quite well in general.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Premise 1: Having a God Concept makes any belief system a religion - if a belief system features a belief about God then it is a religious belief system

Premise 2: Atheists have a God Concept. They have a position on God, an opinion on God that qualifies as a position and an opinion on God, even though Atheists either see no valid reason to believe in God or explicitly reject such a belief. The point is, they still have God-beliefs

You cannot spell "Atheist" without the word "Theist"

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

Your conclusion is not well-founded. You can't spell slaughter without the word laughter, yet it is no laughing matter.

 

[F1fan]

No......

Stamp Collecting is a relationship to stamps

So if you go buy a stamps to send letters you are stamp collecting? If you manipulate language you can argue that claim, but you will still be wrong and using language manipulatively. You are using language to force an intention and activity onto people just buying stamps so they can post letters, and this is deceptive and dishonest. They don't collect stamps as an interest.

Non-Stamp Collecting is also a relationship to stamps

It's not collective stamps as an interst about stamps. It's not a hobby.

The former is in the form of a hobby

The latter is in the form of an absence of a hobby

Who cares? We humans don't do the vast majority of hobbies or activities available for humans to do, but we don't list them when peop;le ask us what hobbies we have. We list the affirmative, and what we don't do is irrelevant.

I race bikes, and not many people do. I'll bet you don't. So write me a 5 paragraph essay telling me all about yourself not being a bike racer.

Would that be useful, helpful?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

An important and Eddifying clarification no doubt eagerly awaited by all who might make sense of it. Thanks.

 

[Eddi]

In general, why are you apparently so keen to make atheism mean anything more than a simple description of a singular minor characteristic?

For fun

I know it is something Atheists (on the whole) don't agree with so wanted to debate it a bit

For fun

 

[F1fan]

Do you think it’s possible for anyone to be completely without attachment to myth, ideology or unevidenced belief?

Well we in the West tend to grow up in a society that spreads the notion of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and the kids love it. Varents are complicit in spreading this idea among children, so they are involved in the proliferation of these false ideas. Also taught to kids is the many different versions of Christianity, and many of these forms don't agree. Try getting a clear view of God between a Baptist and a Catholic. Add a Muslim in nthe mix and you get even less agreement about God. Add a New Age person and what they say about god is different yet again. Atheists are another category that observe the many believers not agreeing with each other. Who do you suggest an atheist should listen to, the Catholic? The Muslim? What makes either of them more correct than the other given the severe lack of evidence?

So we are all exposed to ideas, and we all reject many of them, even you @RestlessSoul . You reject all sorts of religious ideas from believers, but you poke at atheists as if they are the only ones rejecting religious claims.

There must be some exceptional individuals like that.

Buddhist monks.

Although perhaps their own clear sighted lack of self deception is the myth they cling to…

Well, then find evidence and argue for it. Given your little quip here it is likely you are just slinging an accusation without evidence to insult those who don't believe. Remember, you are a person who rejects many religious beliefs of other theists, so be careful.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth. Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

I'm sure that you realize that this is about nomenclature, not ontological status. I'm an agnostic atheist and humanist, and what that is doesn't depend on how one defines religion. Calling it a religion changes nothing about that set of beliefs and unbeliefs.

The purpose of prose is to communicate ideas. I have a thought in my head right now that you don't know about yet, but I want you to hold it as well for whatever purpose. If I choose my words well and you are literate in my language, that happens when I translate that idea into words, send them to you, and you render them as a thought in your head. Do these thoughts look alike? Are we thinking the same thought now? If so, I have achieved my purpose.

But to do this, the words must have limited, restricted meaning. The extension of a definition is the collection of things and types of things to which it refers. The more we can narrow that, the better success we have in sending ideas to one another using words. What you want to do is to broaden that extension, to include more kinds of things under the rubric of religion. This just makes it more difficult to know what you mean when you use the word.

Information theory concerns itself with this matter of the fidelity of the transmission of information mathematically: "Information theory is the mathematical study of the quantification, storage, and communication of information."

We have a similar problem in contract bridge, where we are trying to describe the strength and shape of our hands to our partners to decide or optimal contract or defense. The best bidding systems are the most granular, that is, the bids have the most limited and specific meanings. But we have orders of magnitude more possible hands to describe than bids and legal bidding sequences to represent them all, so each bid must describe a range of possible hands, but the fewer per bid, the better for communicating what you're looking at to your partner (and the opponents).

Likewise, ordinary language is the attempt to map a much smaller assortment of words onto a much larger assortment of possibilities to describe, and thus we must balance between giving words a range of meanings and limiting or constricting those meanings. We sould never broaden the meanings for no useful purpose.

Not collecting stamps is a hobby that is based on the absence of a decision not to collect stamps
By not electing to collect stamps one has taken a stance on stamp collecting
Not collecting stamps is a relationship to stamp collecting
A non-stamp collector has a relationship to stamp collecting: he or she does not collect stamps

OK. Now let's make the word hobby refer to everything (and therefore nothing). Let's let the word apply not just to the things we do but also to those we don't do, so now, when I tell you I have 347,000 hobbies, you can't tell if I have any that take my time.

I don't think there is any difference between beliefs and non-beliefs

Let's conflate those as well. Now ask me what I believe.

Here's a good idea. Let's give everybody the same name. Now you're Bob, and so am I. So is everybody else. "By the way, Bob called and wants you to call him back." "Bob who?" you ask. "I don't make such distinctions," I answer.

Atheism is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Speaking of collecting as a hobby, I have several of these assembled that might amuse some. The two best known ones come first:

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color.
Atheism is a religion like transparent is a color.
Atheism is a religion like health is a disease state.
Atheism is a religion like death is a lifestyle.
Atheism is a religion like nonsmoking is a habit.
Atheism is a religion like fasting is a menu entree.
Atheism is a religion like unemployment is a career choice.
Atheism is a religion like nudity is a fashion style.
Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position.
Atheism is a religion like off is a radio station and silence a song playing on it.

 

[PureX]

"I believe that what you believe about God is false!" is a belief about God. But almost no atheist will admit it, anymore. And that's sad. Because that is a logically defensible position, if they would admit to it being their position, and then give some thought to it.

 

[Eddi]

An important and Eddifying clarification no doubt eagerly awaited by all who might make sense of it. Thanks.

I'm sorry if you cannot make sense of what I said

From your tone I get the impression you are not at all interested, but I'm going to clarify in case anyone else reading didn't get what I said.....

I believe that a "religion" and a "religious position" are not synonymous

Atheism is not a religion in that it doesn't have such things as a central authoritative text (Quran, Tanakh, Gospels), a formal membership structure, a clergy, worship rituals, holy buildings - etc.

It is however a religious position as it can inform what people say and think about religious and ethical issues, as well as about the nature of God

And I think that religions and religious positions are similar in that they can both be ways of relating to (or not relating to) God

All religions are also religious positions but not all religious positions are religions

The thing is, if Atheism is a religious position (which I think it is) then that would mean that Atheists do religion, when they do Atheism - even if they do not constitute a religion

Here's the context of what you quoted me as saying:

I initially set out to argue that atheism is a religion, but that didn't really work so I changed to arguing that it is a religious position

I no longer believe in the title of this thread so I made a clarification in big letters

Come to think of it, once I have posted this message I think I shall go and change the title, if that is possible....

I hope this helps?

 

[Soandso]

"I believe that what you believe about God is false!" is a belief about God. But almost no atheist will admit it, anymore. And that's sad. Because that is a logically defensible position, if they would admit to it being their position, and then give some thought to it.

Eh. What's so logically indefensible about just not being convinced by the god concepts that have been presented or seen so far?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

"I believe that what you believe about God is false!" is a belief about God. But almost no atheist will admit it, anymore. And that's sad. Because that is a logically defensible position

My position is defensible, and it's not that one. I'm an agnostic atheist - a position you either can't understand or refuse to believe can exist.

if they would admit to it being their position, and then give some thought to it.

It's you who needs to do a bit more thinking. Why would anybody take advice from somebody who can't understand this simple idea and who can never learn what the agnostic atheist believes?