atheism is a (religious position)

[Audie]

Your English seems pretty good to me. What are you having difficulty with here?

Its not me having difficulty.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Cultural meaning IS arbitrary. Where any individual is born and raised is what they will learn, and also learn what ideas to assign meaning to by mere consequence of location. If you were born in the Middle East you would likley be Muslim. If born in India you would likely be Hindu. We humans learn the ideas we are exposed to, and where it comes to religious ideas there are so many, and with varying degrees of influence, we might decide to opt for some other framework. But you might not have options in Iran, but would in Austrailia. All arbitrary good luck or bad luck.

If our beliefs and values are largely determined by our environment, isn’t that the opposite of arbitrary?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Its not me having difficulty.

Right. So you’re just being difficult?

 

[F1fan]

If our beliefs and values are largely determined by our environment, isn’t that the opposite of arbitrary?

You missed the most important point: you have no choice where you are born. THAT is the arbitrary element. You have no choice what you learn as a child growing up in any given society.

What language do you speak? Japanese? Russian? Some form of English? That is due to the arbitrary nature of where you were born.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You missed the most important point: you have no choice where you are born. THAT is the arbitrary element. You have no choice what you learn as a child growing up in any given society.

What language do you speak? Japanese? Russian? Some form of English? That is due to the arbitrary nature of where you were born.

By arbitrary you mean random then, rather than whimsical. In which case yeah, the accident of birth determines how we start in life. After that, who knows what influences come into play.

 

[shunyadragon]

If our beliefs and values are largely determined by our environment, isn’t that the opposite of arbitrary?

Agree,sort of, too simplistic, Needs clarification.

 

[Altfish]

Premise 1: Having a God Concept makes any belief system a religion - if a belief system features a belief about God then it is a religious belief system

Premise 2: Atheists have a God Concept. They have a position on God, an opinion on God that qualifies as a position and an opinion on God, even though Atheists either see no valid reason to believe in God or explicitly reject such a belief. The point is, they still have God-beliefs

You cannot spell "Atheist" without the word "Theist"

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

How do you live life not having a 'religious position'?
As soon as someone says to you, "What is your religion?" you are forced to take a position, unless you decline to answer.

 

[Whateverist]

There is a difference between “having a position on religion” and “having a position within religion”. Atheism is the former but not the latter.

 

[Bear Wild]

Premise 1: Having a God Concept makes any belief system a religion - if a belief system features a belief about God then it is a religious belief system

Premise 2: Atheists have a God Concept. They have a position on God, an opinion on God that qualifies as a position and an opinion on God, even though Atheists either see no valid reason to believe in God or explicitly reject such a belief. The point is, they still have God-beliefs

You cannot spell "Atheist" without the word "Theist"

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

Can you have a religion without the concept of God?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Agree,sort of, too simplistic, Needs clarification.

Well it depends on how we are using the word 'arbitrary'. If my beliefs and values are determined by my environment, then it seems to me they're more mandatoty than arbitrary, at least up until the point where I begin to question them. They won't have been arbtrarily selected from a range of options, even in secular and relatively liberal Europe.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Can you have a religion without the concept of God?

Some Buddhists would presumably say yes.

@Secret Chief ?

 

[Bear Wild]

Some Buddhists would presumably say yes.

@Secret Chief ?

I agree which raised the question of whether atheist have a religious position difficult. There is a clear tendency for religion to be equated with a supernatural "God" and in particular the Abrahamic "God" and to not consider all of the other religious positions.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well it depends on how we are using the word 'arbitrary'. If my beliefs and values are determined by my environment, then it seems to me they're more mandatoty than arbitrary, at least up until the point where I begin to question them. They won't have been arbtrarily selected from a range of options, even in secular and relatively liberal Europe.

I do not believe mandatory or arbitrary are really relevant, especially arbitrary. Our beliefs are not arbitrary. Arbitrary implies randomness, which I do not believe anything is truly random.Yes, our environment is complicated with the dominant influence especially our parentage, peers, culture, education, and the time we live, 80-90% or more teens believe the religion or church of our parents in the USA. In Islamic and Vedic cultures the percentage is higher.

Mandatory? In some Islamic countries belief is mandatory.

One environmental factor in atheism is the increase in education makes one's beliefs in God and religion less important, and more likely to be atheist or agnostic.

In America, Does More Education Equal Less Religion?

Overall, U.S. adults with college degrees are less religious than others on some measures. However, Christians with higher levels of education appear to be just as religious as those with less schooling.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[shunyadragon]

Some Buddhists would presumably say yes.

@Secret Chief ?

Buddhism? Not entirely. Buddhism is variable and divided, with the Vedic concepts of Gods included. It is true Zen Buddhism does not include Gods as such, but the Japanese culture is mixed with Shinto influence.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I do not believe mandatory or arbitrary are really relevant, especially arbitrary. Our beliefs are not arbitrary. Arbitrary implies randomness, which I do not believe anything is truly random.Yes, our environment is the dominant influence especially our parentage, peers, culture, education, and the time we live, 80-90% or more teens believe the religion or church of our parents in the USA. In Islamic and Vedic cultures the percentage is higher.

There does however, appear to be some degree of irreducible randomness in nature. Doesn't quantum mechanics effectively confirm this?

 

[RestlessSoul]

I agree which raised the question of whether atheist have a religious position difficult. There is a clear tendency for religion to be equated with a supernatural "God" and in particular the Abrahamic "God" and to not consider all of the other religious positions.

Sure. When contributors to a predominently American forum use the word 'God', they're generally referring to the God-concept with which they are most familiar. This seems to be especially true of some of the atheists on this forum; believers of all persuasions often have a more fluid, and more personal, concept of what divinity is to them.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Buddhism? Not entirely. Buddhism is variable and divided, with the Vedic concepts of Gods included. It is true Zen Buddhism does not include Gods as such, but the Japanese culture is mixed with Shinto influence.

And Taoism, I believe

 

[Bear Wild]

Buddhism? Not entirely. Buddhism is variable and divided, with the Vedic concepts of Gods included. It is true Zen Buddhism does not include Gods as such, but the Japanese culture is mixed with Shinto influence.

And therefore there are religions that do not include God. There is also significant differences in relationship to other religions relationships to spirits or gods or goddesses that are not equitable to the God of the Abrahamic path

 

[shunyadragon]

There does however, appear to be some degree of irreducible randomness in nature. Doesn't quantum mechanics effectively confirm this?

Actually no. I previously cited references in other threads that Quantum Mechanics at the smallest scale is not subject to randomness any more than Macro scale Physics. Though in both worlds the timing of an individual cause and effect outcome is random.

This thread addressed this issue: The problems of the belief in 'Randomness' and use of probability in 'Intelligent Design.'

Also see: Is quantum theory really as random as it seems?

I will cite more.

 

[shunyadragon]

And therefore there are religions that do not include God.

Not necessarily. There are a significant number of Jewish atheists and agnostics that do not include Gods. Yes through the history of humanity there many variable conflicting religions with many beliefs in Gods or whatever for there to be any consistency from the human perspective especially since they are ancient religions from an ancient cultural perspective with many conflicting views of the nature of our physical existence,

There is also significant differences in relationship to other religions relationships to spirits or gods or goddesses that are not equitable to the God of the Abrahamic path

Yes, which brings to question the validity of any one religion. First, the degree of equitability of the different religions is from the perspective of the believers of any one religion. The differences between the religion of Genesis, later Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Islam are different enough to question which God or Gods are involved, if any.