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Atheism is not a default position

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
No. Of course, it HAS developed over time, but that wasn't what I meant nor what the literature refers to. After all, atheism didn't exist so far as we can tell for most of human existence (the Greek atheos didn't mean a disbelief in gods, as this was unthinkable).
Atheism has always existed, there have always been people who do not believe in God. That words change in meaning over time does not at all indicate that the position 'atheism' refers to now did not exist prior to the modern usage of that term.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't think you will even find a scientifically-agreed meaning for "default" in this subject, frankly.
Ironically, you're both right and wrong here, depending upon how one chooses to read/interpret the literature. Few scientists are scholars of history and religious studies, and as the cognitive sciences include some of the most reductionist-prone scientists a great many scientific studies have taken as given a conception of religion that is modern and applied it to religion in general. As a result, the "default", according to the literature in evolutionary psychology, neuroscience, and so forth, is really considered to be "religion" as we use the term today, which doesn't accurately describe religion as it has been practiced in general. In fact, religion throughout most of human history was so fundamentally concerned with practice and beliefs so completely tied to all areas of life that the idea of "religion" didn't exist.

However, both scientists and historians are much more in agreement when it comes to the emergence of atheism, a relatively recent phenomenon. Thus the "default" position can be described as (to borrow from set theory) the complement of any set of religious beliefs or religious belief. This definition is not only consistent with the "default' according to scientific research, but also is consistent with studies of religion (historical, philosophical, sociological, etc.).
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheism has always existed, there have always been people who do not believe in God.
Monotheists, particularly Christians, were called atheists in antiquity because they believed in "God". That is, for their "gentile" or "pagan" counterparts, belief in "God" rather than gods fit the definition of atheism; it was that radical (radical in that Christians asserted that there weren't gods but "God").
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Monotheists, particularly Christians, were called atheists in antiquity because they believed in "God". That is, for their "gentile" or "pagan" counterparts, belief in "God" rather than gods fit the definition of atheism; it was that radical (radical in that Christians asserted that there weren't gods but "God").
Yes, that's correct - the first usage of the word 'atheist' was used to describe monotheists. But that is irrelevant - atheism (the position of not believing in God) has always existed. That the usage of the word 'atheist' changes does not at all infer that atheism as a position did not exist.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Definition of atheism in English:
noun
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

atheism: definition of atheism in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)
As long as we are going to use Oxford, we might as well use the actual Oxford dictionary (the OED). So here:
"atheism, n.

Pronunciation:
/ˈeɪθiːɪz(ə)m/
Forms: Also 15 athisme.

Etymology: < French athéisme (16th cent. in Littré), < Greek ἄθεος : see atheal adj. and -ism suffix. Compare Italian atheismo and the earlier atheonism n.

Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Also, Disregard of duty to God, godlessness (practical atheism).

1587 Sir P. Sidney & A. Golding tr. P. de Mornay Trewnesse Christian Relig. xx. 355 Athisme, that is to say, vtter Godlesnes.
1605 Bacon Of Aduancem. Learning i. sig. B3v, A little or superficiall knowledge of Philosophie may encline the minde of Man to Atheisme.
1711 J. Addison Spectator No. 119. ¶5 Hypocrisy in one Age is generally succeeded by Atheism in another.
1859 C. Kingsley Lett. (1878) II. 75 Whatever doubt or doctrinal Atheism you and your friends may have, don't fall into moral Atheism."

Of course, dictionaries don't define words, usage does. For that one should use corpora.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, that's correct - the first usage of the word 'atheist' was used to describe monotheists.
No, it wasn't. That was a usage. The term is older and referred to a lack of relations (i.e., lack of observance of practices) with the gods.

But that is irrelevant - atheism (the position of not believing in God) has always existed. That the usage of the word 'atheist' changes does not at all infer that atheism as a position did not exist.
The position of not believing in gods hasn't always existed so far as any records indicate. If you can point to sources, by all means do so. Of course, if this is simply another attempt to define atheism by "lack of belief" and "lack of belief" by a state ascribable to entities not capable of having beliefs, than sure, atheism has always existed (at least as long as anything has) in e.g., the form of rocks, moons, etc. Of course, this definition of atheism is inaccurate, as it doesn't reflect usage but does ascribe to things like rocks a position.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
No, it wasn't. That was a usage. The term is older and referred to a lack of relations (i.e., lack of observance of practices) with the gods.


The position of not believing in gods hasn't always existed so far as any records indicate. If you can point to sources, by all means do so.
LOL Sheesh mate, what a ridiculous comment. No thanks, I see no point in persuing such an inane and fatuous objection.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But belief is simply the state of accepting a given proposition as true.
Which is logically equivalent to holding the negation of the proposition false, which is equivalent to belief in the negation of the proposition. This is readily seen simply by noting the prefix "dis" in disbelief. Disbelief in some proposition P is the belief that ~P.

If you do not hold a proposition to be true
...then you hold that it isn't true. Your language betrays the problem: to "hold" something about a proposition requires an ability to interpret it (and to reject it).

If you have yet to learn or hear anything about the sun, or have never seen the sun, or lack the ability to even comprehend the idea of the sun
...then it is impossible for you to hold anything about any proposition concerning the sun. Ergo, you don't disbelieve in the sun any more than you believe in it.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No. Of course, it HAS developed over time, but that wasn't what I meant nor what the literature refers to. After all, atheism didn't exist so far as we can tell for most of human existence (the Greek atheos didn't mean a disbelief in gods, as this was unthinkable).

Sorry, what I meant was that theism in it's various forms developed independently in most (if not all) areas of human population.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, what I meant was that theism in it's various forms developed independently in most (if not all) areas of human population.
Actually theism is extremely rare (compared to religious beliefs in general). It is almost entirely dependent upon Judaism, and even then only Judaism once Judaism became monotheistic (which was after even some of the books included in the bible). We can trace almost all theistic beliefs back to the move to monotheism within Judaism.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Actually theism is extremely rare (compared to religious beliefs in general). It is almost entirely dependent upon Judaism, and even then only Judaism once Judaism became monotheistic (which was after even some of the books included in the bible). We can trace almost all theistic beliefs back to the move to monotheism within Judaism.
Please explain. I was under the impression that theism described belief in a god or gods, and many religions were around before Judaism.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Which is logically equivalent to holding the negation of the proposition false, which is equivalent to belief in the negation of the proposition. This is readily seen simply by noting the prefix "dis" in disbelief. Disbelief in some proposition P is the belief that ~P.

How is this so? If someone asks you whether a group of objects number odd or even and you do not have the faintest idea, is it not possible to reject both claims (that the objects are even in number, and odd in number)? How does the rejection of to oppossing claims until evidence is discovered to support one or the other differ from disbelief?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please explain. I was under the impression that theism described belief in a god or gods, and many religions were around before Judaism.
Many religions were around before Judaism. But belief in many gods/deities is polytheism. And religion (as it is understood today) didn't really exist until a few hundred years ago (in Greek, Latin, Hittite, etc., for example, there was no word for "religion"; it was to intricately linked to all aspects of socio-cultural practices to warrant a singular word to describe something that didn't exist singularly).
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Many religions were around before Judaism. But belief in many gods/deities is polytheism. And religion (as it is understood today) didn't really exist until a few hundred years ago (in Greek, Latin, Hittite, etc., for example, there was no word for "religion"; it was to intricately linked to all aspects of socio-cultural practices to warrant a singular word to describe something that didn't exist singularly).
That they did not have a word for something does not mean it didn't exist. So much for logic.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How is this so?
For a number of reasons. Once again, there's my default "superman/Clark Kent" example. If we allow beliefs to be predicates rather than descriptions of one's position concerning a predicate or proposition, we run into contradictions. For another, because beliefs can be understood, indeed observed, as neurophysiological states. It is physically impossible to not have a belief about something that one doesn't understand except insofar as one's not having a belief is distinct from all self-described atheists, agnostics, or any other person(s) capable of expressing that they do not believe god or gods exist.

If someone asks you whether a group of objects number odd or even and you do not have the faintest idea, is it not possible to reject both claims (that the objects are even in number, and odd in number)?
I would say it absolutely is. But I don't equate believing that X doesn't exist with not believing X. That's Bunyip's claim.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me put that better:
Unless one is willing to work within a formal system (or even some informal system as long as it is based upon something like linguistics or neuroscience), then given any proposition X, in order to either believe X or to believe that X isn't true, one must be able to evaluate the proposition X. Thus, not believing X isn't the same as believing X isn't true, just the way believing that the proposition "God exists" isn't true is NOT the equivalent of not believing god exists. One is an epistemic claim, the other the lack of one. Atheists don't lack epistemic claims about deities.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
For a number of reasons. Once again, there's my default "superman/Clark Kent" example. If we allow beliefs to be predicates rather than descriptions of one's position concerning a predicate or proposition, we run into contradictions. For another, because beliefs can be understood, indeed observed, as neurophysiological states. It is physically impossible to not have a belief about something that one doesn't understand except insofar as one's not having a belief is distinct from all self-described atheists, agnostics, or any other person(s) capable of expressing that they do not believe god or gods exist.


I would say it absolutely is. But I don't equate believing that X doesn't exist with not believing X. That's Bunyip's claim.
Yes, I would say description of one's position is accurate. I follow that belief cannot be a predicate in propositional logic at least. But, your comment was to immortal, not bunyip. You implied that disbelief that p is true= belief that not p is true. At least that is what I understood you to say. I am not commenting on whether it is possible to have belief. I am suggesting that a disbelief that p is true is not belief that not p istrue, but rather a belief that p is false. For, it is possible to have a belief that p is false and a belief that not p is false (or that both are true).
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
When the conditions for belief do not apply, such as when a proposition has no (or can have no) truth value.
If the conditions for belief don't apply, then you do not believe it.

Something you don't know, for instance, can have no truth value until and unless you learn it.
Which is why you don't believe it until you do.

Else, you leave the door open to belief in tea pots orbiting Mars, or alien vessels parked on Jupiter.
And that is why we don't believe in those things until we have reason to believe they exist.

There is belief and its negation. A thing and its negation are not options of each other.
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
 
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