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Atheism is not a default position

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But, your comment was to immortal, not bunyip.
My mistake. The identical assertion was my by two individuals in similar threads and I'm having a bit of trouble distinguishing while having no trouble carelessly assuming which responses to which posts in which thread I am responding to other than the immediate (the two threads are so identical, as are the claims made that I have addressed).
You implied that disbelief that p is true= belief that not p is true.
Given the acceptance that belief is an evaluation of the truth of a proposition such that if one doesn't "hold that a proposition is true", one must be able to evaluate that proposition. That is, take this statement:
If you do not hold a proposition to be true, then you do not hold that belief.
If you don't "hold a proposition to be true", and IF that implies that "you do not hold that belief", then in order to "not hold that belief" you must be able to evaluate it. "Not holding" X belief is another way of saying that one believes X to be false/untrue. If I neither believe nor disbelieve X, I don't hold any belief about X other than that either I am incapable of holding belief regarding X or that I don't know the truth value of X. If the latter, then it is not the case that I believe P is true or that it is false, but, to use your words, that I don't have "a disbelief that p is true" implies I have a "belief that p is false." I believe that it is absolutely possible to neither believe P is false nor that it is true, but to not know (which is why I call myself agnostic but do not consider myself an atheist).

That said, I wouldn't say "it is possible to have a belief that p is false and a belief that not p is false (or that both are true)." Rather, I would say that it is possible not to have a belief concerning P, or to not know. This is the problem of logic that doesn't allow for mental state predicates or similar extensions to classical logic. Luckily, we have language to go on: when people say they don't believe P, they generally mean that they believe ~P, and if they don't know they say this. Also, if they aren't capable of asserting an epistemic claim, then we don't posit they have one by asserting they believe ~P.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I don't know what that means, so I don't know if that's what I mean. But I can confess that I've never thought that.
I was trying to understand your view there, because it seems so foreign to me. My view is each defined god you don't know about, you also don't believe in. It's not about like or dislike.

My state of belief before hearing about it isn't.
Yes, before you are educated about a certain way you won't have belief about them. What is your view of Ilmatar now that you've heard the name, is it disbelief?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
Dodgson (Carroll) was intimately familiar with logic and wrote such statements because he intended to address issues of logic (he was a regular contributor to Mind, and the originator of a lengthy narrative address to Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise). Recall that Humpty Dumpty DEFINES the nonsense words in the poem, such as "the grass around a sundial". It is absolutely essential in logic to be able to determine the truth-value of nonsense, because one of the foremost reasons for developing formal logic is to provide frameworks within which the validity of arguments can be determined without knowing what the argument is (as it is reduced to a series of symbols and inference rules and/or schemata).
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If that is the case, it is not unreasonable to suggest that if something is incapable of the "state of accepting," it can neither believe nor not believe.

Why is it not unreasonable? How is it possible to both accept a proposition and NOT accept a proposition?

Additionally, considering there are additional states beyond the "state of accepting," such as the "state of experiencing" and the "state of knowing," that "belief" and "not belief" are not necessarily the best terms to apply.
But those other states are irrelevant when you are talking purely about belief. We're not dealing with "experience" or "knowledge", we are talking about "belief", and when we are discussing the meaning of the word "belief" then "belief" and "not belief" are exactly the best terms to apply.

FYI, I really don't give two $#@% about the implications this has for defining theism and atheism. I think both terms are total rubbish, as they both fail to get at what the actual worldview is.
I get what you mean, but I think your contempt is somewhat ill-placed. There's no reason to get upset over broadly defined terms whose only purpose is to differentiate mental states on a specific proposition. Perhaps their useage is what annoys you, but I find it extremely difficult to consider a word in and of itself "rubbish".

If that's the story you wish to tell, so be it. I've never been a fan of black-and-white, this-or-that thinking. In addition to finding it incredibly boring, I also don't find it to be reflective of how humans account their experience reality.
When I say "I either have eggs or I have no eggs", are you not a fan of that black-and-white, this-or-that thinking either? If you don't mind people saying "I am not a motorist" or "I eat pork" or "I don't like hats" or "I once ate turkey", then there's really no reason to get bent out of shape by people saying "I believe X" or "I don't believe X". Everything I just said was an either/or proposition.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Which is logically equivalent to holding the negation of the proposition false, which is equivalent to belief in the negation of the proposition. This is readily seen simply by noting the prefix "dis" in disbelief. Disbelief in some proposition P is the belief that ~P.
Actually, disbelief is regularly defined as an "inability" to accept a given proposition as true, not a negation of a specific proposition. Not accepting a proposition doesn't necessitate a negation of the proposition, merely the not accepting of it.

...then you hold that it isn't true. Your language betrays the problem: to "hold" something about a proposition requires an ability to interpret it (and to reject it).
Actually, you're the one who said "hold", I said "NOT hold". For you to "NOT hold" a position true doesn't required you to HOLD any other position, merely NOT HOLD that a proposition is true. You don't have to HOLD the position the number of grains of salt in the ocean is even in order to NOT HOLD the position that the number of grains of salt in the ocean is odd. You can simply NOT HOLD a position, or even any comprehension, of the subject whatsoever.

...then it is impossible for you to hold anything about any proposition concerning the sun. Ergo, you don't disbelieve in the sun any more than you believe in it.
But it is still possible for you to NOT HOLD something, which is what I wrote. And to NOT HOLD a belief means you DO NOT BELIEVE, you LACK A BELIEF or are INCAPABLE OF BELIEF.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually, disbelief is regularly defined as an "inability" to accept a given proposition as true, not a negation of a specific proposition.
One can't define or even deal with such definitions logically (in the standard sense), as truth-values are binary. However, extensions of logic to e.g., possible worlds or fuzzy logic allow us to deal formally and more flexibly with mental state predicates/epistemic claims. In fact, modal logic is an extension to classical logic (or extensions) which includes the addition of a modal operator that refers to/signifies epistemic modality.

Disbelief is not regularly defined or used to refer to an inability to accept that a proposition is true except insofar as "inability" refers to e.g., my "inability" to accept that creationism is true. I am actually capable of accepting that creationism is true in a way that e.g., rocks, infants, or those who have never heard of creationism are not.

Not accepting a proposition doesn't necessitate a negation of the proposition, merely the not accepting of it.
"Not accepting" is an act. It requires that one evaluate a proposition, for otherwise it is not true one is "not accepting" it. I don't "not accept" propositions or positions that I am unaware of.

For you to "NOT hold" a position true doesn't required you to HOLD any other position
It is quite literally to negate "holding". To "hold" or "have" a belief is to engage in a mental "action", and the negation of "holding" a belief is to engage in the opposite "action". It is to "hold" the negation of the proposition (to be true).

You can simply NOT HOLD a position, or even any comprehension, of the subject whatsoever.
Colloquially? Sure. And in that case I agree. But in that case it is senseless/meaningless to claim that anybody who hasn't evaluated some proposition/position X doesn't "hold X" the way that atheists don't hold that god exists. There are those who don't hold that god exists because they don't believe god exists, and those who don't hold god exists because they have no beliefs.


And to NOT HOLD a belief means you DO NOT BELIEVE, you LACK A BELIEF or are INCAPABLE OF BELIEF.
To "not hold a belief" is quite literally (or logically) to hold that the belief is not true. You are choosing to rely on colloquial definitions in one case and reject them in another: infants don't hold beliefs about god(s) because they neither disbelieve nor believe in god, while atheists DO hold beliefs about gods, which is the definition of atheism. There are infinitely many things that any given person doesn't hold a belief regarding, yet we have no words for these "non-beliefs" in general because we don't define words or mental states in general in terms of "lacking" or not "having". Atheism is meaningful and is used as a word only because it refers to a position, not the lack thereof.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
One can't define or even deal with such definitions logically (in the standard sense), as truth-values are binary.
We're not talking about truth values, we're talking about belief. Belief is the acceptance of the claim as true, regardless of the truth value of the claim itself. It is quite logically simple to consider a person not accepting a claim as being true when they have not had the claim presented to them or are unable to process the claim - in much the same way as it is reasonable for a person to not accept the claim "sushi tastes delicious" without having tasted sushi.

However, extensions of logic to e.g., possible worlds or fuzzy logic allow us to deal formally and more flexibly with mental state predicates/epistemic claims. In fact, modal logic is an extension to classical logic (or extensions) which includes the addition of a modal operator that refers to/signifies epistemic modality.
Okee dokee.

Disbelief is not regularly defined or used to refer to an inability to accept that a proposition is true except insofar as "inability" refers to e.g., my "inability" to accept that creationism is true. I am actually capable of accepting that creationism is true in a way that e.g., rocks, infants, or those who have never heard of creationism are not.
In almost every definition I have encountered of disbelief, "inability" is a word regularly used.

"Not accepting" is an act.
Not necessarily. If you have not been presented with a claim, you are not in a position to accept it. You have no accepted the claim until such a time as the claim has been presented and you decide to accept it. Until then, it can be said that you do not accept it.

It requires that one evaluate a proposition, for otherwise it is not true one is "not accepting" it. I don't "not accept" propositions or positions that I am unaware of.
Yes you do, because that's the default position. You can't believe a proposition you have not been presented with, ergo the only position you can logically hold is that you do not accept the truth of that proposition. It's about an absence of the acceptance of the claim, not necessarily the rejecting of a claim after it has been presented.

It is quite literally to negate "holding".
No it isn't. NOT doing something is not the equivalent to doing its logical opposite. NOT doing something is merely the NOT doing of that particular thing. You can NOT hold a position while not holding a contrary position.

To "hold" or "have" a belief is to engage in a mental "action", and the negation of "holding" a belief is to engage in the opposite "action". It is to "hold" the negation of the proposition (to be true).
I agree. But to NOT hold or NOT HAVE a belief doesn't require any mental action, it merely requires not holding or having a particular belief.

Colloquially? Sure. And in that case I agree. But in that case it is senseless/meaningless to claim that anybody who hasn't evaluated some proposition/position X doesn't "hold X" the way that atheists don't hold that god exists. There are those who don't hold that god exists because they don't believe god exists, and those who don't hold god exists because they have no beliefs.
It's no less meaningless than asserting a null hypothesis, or stating a baby doesn't have a concept of good or evil, or that rocks are incapable of thought. It is merely a description of a mental state. Can it be applied to babies, amoebas and rocks? Sure, technically. I don't see how that diminishes in any way the function of the term or what it refers to. The fact that it is so broadly defined doesn't make it meaningless. If it were meaningless, I wouldn't be able to define it so concisely and you and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

To "not hold a belief" is quite literally (or logically) to hold that the belief is not true.
No it is not. To not hold a belief is to simply not hold a belief.

You are choosing to rely on colloquial definitions in one case and reject them in another: infants don't hold beliefs about god(s) because they neither disbelieve nor believe in god, while atheists DO hold beliefs about gods, which is the definition of atheism.
Wrong. Atheism is a lack of belief or disbelief in the existence of Gods. Atheists don't necessarily have to hold a position about Gods.

There are infinitely many things that any given person doesn't hold a belief regarding, yet we have no words for these "non-beliefs" in general because we don't define words or mental states in general in terms of "lacking" or not "having". Atheism is meaningful and is used as a word only because it refers to a position, not the lack thereof.
It has just as much meaning being defined as a lack of belief, which is what the word both literally and etymologically refers to, than it does referring to a more specific position. I have heard it argued that defining atheism so broadly makes it "meaningless", but I have never once heard sufficient justification for this argument and have never found it particularly compelling.

The general idea seems to be that "broad = bad" whereas "specific = good". I find this distinction unjustified and arbitrary, and I personally find the whole wrangling over the definition itself absurd. I define atheism in the broad sense because it's what makes the most sense to me considering both the definition and origin of the word, and for framing the debate correctly by identifying atheism as the null hypothesis. I only tend to end up debating the definition of the word when people insist that this broader definition is somehow "incorrect" or shouldn't be used for some arbitrarily defined reasons which are never sufficiently explained. It really shouldn't matter this much, and it's a constant source of irritation to me that people are so insistent that something so arbitrary as using a broader definition a word - provided you give that word clear and concise definition when debating it - can be a source of such lengthy diatribes.

I have no issue with anyone starting a debate about atheism and explaining that, for the sake of that debate, they are defining atheism as "the belief in the non-existence of God" rather than using my definition. I only have an issue when someone tells me that my definition of atheism is "wrong" or "inaccurate" based on some poorly defined criteria that assumes that a word is somehow less useful and functional if it can be applied more broadly, despite the fact that it has a very specific function and value.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We're not talking about truth values, we're talking about belief.
No, we're not. Because your use contradicts that of the English language (British, American, and "other"; see COCA and affiliated datasets).

It is quite logically simple to consider a person not accepting a claim as being true when they have not had the claim presented to them or are unable to process the claim
It is logically ridiculous to compare such non-acceptance with non-belief.

in much the same way as it is reasonable for a person to not accept the claim "sushi tastes delicious" without having tasted sushi.
Great point! Someone who hasn't tasted sushi is qualitatively different from anybody who can make any claim about what it tastes like. Hence atheists or theists or anybody capable of saying anything about whether god does or does not exist is in no way similar to one who is incapable of doing so, just as somebody who can say that sushi tastes delicious or doesn't is qualitatively different from someone who hasn't ever tasted sushi.


In almost every definition I have encountered of disbelief, "inability" is a word regularly used.
1) Definitions are generally used to inform one as to how a word is used colloquially and broadly, which is why dictionaries regularly give logically incompatible definitions.
2) What definitions and how have you compared them against the best corpora?

You have no accepted the claim until such a time as the claim has been presented and you decide to accept it. Until then, it can be said that you do not accept it.
Hence, I haven't NOT accepted it either.


You can't believe a proposition you have not been presented with
nor can I disbelieve it/believe it false.

ergo the only position you can logically hold is that you do not accept the truth of that proposition.
Clearly, obviously, and utterly wrong. I can't possibly hold that a claim I haven't been presented with is wrong, as I haven't been presented with it. This elementary.


No it isn't. NOT doing something is not the equivalent to doing its logical opposite. NOT doing something is merely the NOT doing of that particular thing. You can NOT hold a position while not holding a contrary position.


I agree. But to NOT hold or NOT HAVE a belief doesn't require any mental action, it merely requires not holding or having a particular belief.


It's no less meaningless than asserting a null hypothesis, or stating a baby doesn't have a concept of good or evil, or that rocks are incapable of thought. It is merely a description of a mental state. Can it be applied to babies, amoebas and rocks? Sure, technically. I don't see how that diminishes in any way the function of the term or what it refers to. The fact that it is so broadly defined doesn't make it meaningless. If it were meaningless, I wouldn't be able to define it so concisely and you and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

Wrong. Atheism is a lack of belief or disbelief in the existence of Gods.
Atheism is then two mutually exclusive believes, and therefore meaningless (according to you).

It has just as much meaning being defined as a lack of belief, which is what the word both literally and etymologically refers to
There is no "literal" or etymological meaning for "lack of belief", largely because this phrase is so utterly meaningless, idiomatic, ridiculous, and limited to intellectually bankrupt "new atheists" incapable of a decent argument they must rely on positing a default epistemic position that is impossible. You need only google "etymology" to determine that a phrase such as "lack of belief" has no etymology.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
No, we're not. Because your use contradicts that of the English language (British, American, and "other"; see COCA and affiliated datasets).
How does it?

It is logically ridiculous to compare such non-acceptance with non-belief.
They are necessarily the same. Belief is the acceptance of the truth of a claim. If you have not been presented with a claim, then you cannot accept the claim, in exactly the same way as you cannot be said to possess a stamp collection if you have never heard of or seen a stamp.

Great point! Someone who hasn't tasted sushi is qualitatively different from anybody who can make any claim about what it tastes like. Hence atheists or theists or anybody capable of saying anything about whether god does or does not exist is in no way similar to one who is incapable of doing so, just as somebody who can say that sushi tastes delicious or doesn't is qualitatively different from someone who hasn't ever tasted sushi.
Except even a person who is incapable of making any judgement about God's existence can still be said to lack a belief that they exist, in the same way that a person can lack a belief that sushi tastes nice even if they have never tasted - or even heard of - sushi.

1) Definitions are generally used to inform one as to how a word is used colloquially and broadly, which is why dictionaries regularly give logically incompatible definitions.
2) What definitions and how have you compared them against the best corpora?
Disbelief | Define Disbelief at Dictionary.com
disbelief - definition of disbelief in English from the Oxford dictionary
disbelief - definition of disbelief by The Free Dictionary
Disbelief | Definition of disbelief by Merriam-Webster

Hence, I haven't NOT accepted it either.
I'll assume you mean "rejected", in which case you are wrong. "Reject" means "to not accept".

nor can I disbelieve it/believe it false.
Wrong. You disbelieve it by default. You are not in a position to accept a claim as true, therefore you do not believe the claim.

Clearly, obviously, and utterly wrong. I can't possibly hold that a claim I haven't been presented with is wrong, as I haven't been presented with it. This elementary.
You don't have to HOLD that a claim is wrong, you simply have not NOT HOLD that a claim is true. This is a distinction that I have made repeatedly in the past. You needn't have to say "X is false" in order to NOT HOLD the position that "X is true".

Atheism is then two mutually exclusive believes, and therefore meaningless (according to you).
How? What mutually exclusive beliefs does atheism define?

There is no "literal" or etymological meaning for "lack of belief",
There is for "atheism", which is defined as "absence of theism" - theism being "belief in a deity". An absence of belief simply means exactly what it says: absence of belief.

largely because this phrase is so utterly meaningless, idiomatic, ridiculous, and limited to intellectually bankrupt "new atheists" incapable of a decent argument they must rely on positing a default epistemic position that is impossible.
So when you are born, do you believe giraffes exist or do you believe no giraffes exist?

You need only google "etymology" to determine that a phrase such as "lack of belief" has no etymology.
That's because "etymology" refers to the study and historical significance of WORDS, not PHRASES. I was referring to the definition of the word ATHEIST, not "lack of belief" which is self explanatory.
 

Musty

Active Member

If you'd asked me this a few months ago I would have disagreed but now I find myself somewhat agreeing with you though for slightly different reasons.

The notion that everyone is an atheist until they attain a belief in God belies the nature of human beings who (Based on observation at least) in many cases have strong inclinations to hold theistic or deistic beliefs but equally can be absent of them. I think that it's reasonable to say that these inclinations simply reflect the human condition (The way our mind works and perceives the world around us). If individuals are born with and/or develop a brain/mind that results in a perception of the world which leads to theism and deism it's not true to say that the default state of a human is an atheist. On the other hand if a person is born with a mind/brain and/or develops a perception of the world which leads to atheism then for that individual it may be reasonable to say that their default position was atheism.

I think the problem is that we tend to assume that our perception of the world is the normative position for the rest of the humanity and that anyone who is different must have something wrong with them.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Not that I learned one word from anyone
Til my mother cooed and daddy grinned,
that's all there was, and it was good.
Someone started talking of cradles in trees,
falling and crashing, smoooooccchhhh !
And then when dead, go see this 'god' guy.
"...If I should die before I wake..."
Who the hell makes up all this crap.
And....why is the baby in a tree at all ?
If but not for religion, who would we laugh at ?
Mommy and Daddy didn't have a tree, or a cradle.
And they tried to convince me to learn all the nonsense,
although they didn't study at all, it was for Gandma.
OH well, wasted time in Catholic Catechism classes.
And in 76 years now, I realized "Life is stuff"
And one dies, and one goes on in spirit, not "of" spirit.
And if your buried, it'll take longer.
~
I kinda agree, atheism is the prime default !
~
'mud
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They are necessarily the same.
Can you demonstrate this using the deontic operator?
Belief is the acceptance of the truth of a claim.
Ergo, disbelief or non-belief is the non-acceptance of "the truth of a claim". You can't not accept what you haven't ever been presented with or are incapable of accepting.

If you have not been presented with a claim, then you cannot accept the claim
Which is not true of atheists regarding the existence of god(s). So, either atheists are so completely incapable of understanding anything that they are rocks (which none but those as ignorant as rocks would believe), or atheists cannot accept claims because they are capable of evaluating them and have, after said evaluation, rejected them.


Except even a person who is incapable of making any judgement about God's existence can still be said to lack a belief that they exist, in the same way that a person can lack a belief that sushi tastes nice even if they have never tasted - or even heard of - sushi.
You miss the point. If I've never tasted sushi, I am incapable of rendering a judgment about the taste of sushi. Atheists aren't incapable of rendering a judgment about god; they already have. Either that, or they are so pathetically idiotic and inept they are incapable of so basic an intellectual ability as that of formulating a judgment about a proposition they can evaluate. And we both know atheists are not at all so stupid (I would hazard to guess that both of us might tend to think that atheists are more intelligent than theists on average).


I'll assume you mean "rejected", in which case you are wrong. "Reject" means "to not accept".

Nobody who has any knowledge of language thinks dictionaries define anything. I have access to the most authoritative dictionary in the entire world, and I still recognize that it is inferior to merely an adequate reliance on corpora..
Wrong. You disbelieve it by default.
Not according to neuroscience and the cognitive sciences in general. So I have you reliance on inferior "dictionaries" on the one hand, and science on the other. Which should I believe (without factoring in how inadequate your approach is from a logical perspective)?

You don't have to HOLD that a claim is wrong, you simply have not NOT HOLD that a claim is true.
Have you ever studied logic?
There is for "atheism", which is defined as "absence of theism"
Only it isn't. For one thing, "atheism" was a word hundreds and hundreds of years before theism.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Atheism has always existed, there have always been people who do not believe in God. That words change in meaning over time does not at all indicate that the position 'atheism' refers to now did not exist prior to the modern usage of that term.

I would not agree.
Back when Man was a stupid animal.....not thought toward God.
then someone realized.....he was not his own Maker.

After that....comes all the discussion and nay saying.
 

Blastcat

Active Member
That's funny.

It's not like I'm holding anyone else to definition. I'm just defining.


Yes. And belief often carries the connotation of unwavering. It is, after all, an attitude of truth.

For instance, that the ground under your feet is solid is believed.

Oh.. OK.. Sorry, Willamena. You are defining words the way YOU use them. That's perfectly fine.
I can't agree with most of your definitions, and that makes it hard for me to use those words in a conversation with you about them.

IF I want to use the word "trust" or "faith" or "doubt" in a sentence, and we can't even agree what these MEAN.... that's where the conversation ends. Battling over personal definitions to common words.

It's like we aren't talking the same language.

Well, if your goal was to PROTECT your ideas, confusing definitions is one way to go about it.
 

Blastcat

Active Member
Belief is an ability.
If you lack the ability you cannot believe.

The ability is this discussion is performed under reasoning.

Belief is a thought process. It's based on accepting a conclusion as true.
Most people have this "ability" called "thinking".
 

Blastcat

Active Member
I would not agree.
Back when Man was a stupid animal.....not thought toward God.
then someone realized.....he was not his own Maker.

After that....comes all the discussion and nay saying.

Please demonstrate that any of your conjecture is true.
I don't think you have a BIT of evidence for the statement.
 
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