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Atheism is not a default position

Oh dear. Please tell me this is not another Barrett belief.
What research?
By whom?
Published and peer reviewed where?
With what data and what assumptions?

All your premisses are 100% wrong, faulty and easily corrected.

Belief in God is Part of Human Nature - Oxford Study - Telegraph

"Humans are naturally predisposed to believe in gods and life after death, according to a major three-year international study.

Led by two academics at Oxford University, the £1.9 million study found that human thought processes were “rooted” to religious concepts."

The rest can be found at the link.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Atheism was never the "default" position; that's something atheists concocted in order to ooze their way out of having to present a positive supporting argument.
That was quite an unpleasant characterisation. It is and always has been my default position despite attempts to have been raised into belief in God.
 
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StopS

Member
a Christian missionary who went to study a native tribe

Correct. Here's his story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Everett and a media article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...86354/Daniel-Everett-lost-in-translation.html

Oh, and, well, you can't "convert to atheism" as such.
There is no such -ism as atheism and there's nothing to convert to. It's just the absence of the beleif that gods exist.
It's just the human being that remains after subtracting a belief in a god or gods.
 

StopS

Member
Led by two academics at Oxford University, the £1.9 million study found that human thought processes were “rooted” to religious concepts."

Just as I thought.
I debunked that a few years ago. There was no research, not results, nothing at all, just claims.
This is just mindless repetition of long refuted claims. Why? Why would anyone repeat this article? Kids tend to believe anything and abusing this to try and make it look as though there is a tendency to believe something and make atheists look deficient somehow is sad.
All they did was ask kids of differing ages whether it was more likely that mommy knew less than a god. Sick, in my eyes.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Only because you are wording it that way. If I've never been exposed to the idea of fairies being tiny humanoids with wings who exist in wooded areas and cause mischief, I can still not believe in them in that, they are not in that set of things I believe in. I don't have to ponder them if I've never been presented with the concept of them.
Only because you're wording it that way. If I've never heard of fairies, there'd be nothing in which to believe or disbelieve. Not believing requires a subject, something to not believe.

Only after one has been presented with the idea of fairies, or independently, using imaginative thinking, conceived of the idea on one's own, can one state their belief or non-belief in such terms.
And hence we have believers and non-believers, alternately known as theists and atheists.

And of course, theism is a broad brush adjective. Once one decides one is a theist, one has to decide the nature of the theistic entity they believe in. Male, female or gender neutral? omniscient or not? omnipotent or not? vengeful or forgiving? Misogynistic or not? Genocidal or not? Racist of not? Petty or not? I could go on and on.
And hence we have atheists, who can reject any and all of that without having to lift a finger to debate it. Go us.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I think the default position for intelligent humans is curiosity.

I think belief is just someone taking advantage of that curiosity.

Picking a belief as a default is impossible. Beliefs are rooted in experience and learning. So any 'default' belief would just be the result of someones life experience.
Bingo!

and there is a parable about casting seed in every direction.
what comes of it is influenced by the immediate surroundings.

but once the idea takes root....uprooting the foundation tears it all down.

We humans are made to be curious....even as death is noted as pending.
I refer to Genesis Chapter Two.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Belief in God is Part of Human Nature - Oxford Study - Telegraph

"Humans are naturally predisposed to believe in gods and life after death, according to a major three-year international study.

Led by two academics at Oxford University, the £1.9 million study found that human thought processes were “rooted” to religious concepts."

The rest can be found at the link.

That is not a default position. This covers limitation and lack of limitations. God is introduced as a concept to the children as part of language. Thus your own studies shows that theism is a belief that develops. If a believe develops then it is not the default one.

This is not a study, it is an article about a study. Without the actual study no one can verify anything in the article nor the methods used, setting or control group. Also your own article refutes your use of it. You source is useless.

But people living in cities in highly developed countries were less likely to hold religious beliefs than those living a more rural way of life, the researchers found.

If children are less likely to develop said beliefs then it is not the default one. There are two developed views. One towards beliefs and one away from belief. These are two alternatives to the natural default state which is unknown. Look up the word default.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I think the default position for intelligent humans is curiosity.

I think belief is just someone taking advantage of that curiosity.

Picking a belief as a default is impossible. Beliefs are rooted in experience and learning. So any 'default' belief would just be the result of someones life experience.
Just so.

Ignorance is a default of belief only where nothing is a default of being.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
And hence we have atheists, who can reject any and all of that without having to lift a finger to debate it. Go us.
Having a position without claims is quite easy, it's true that no one comes close to really challenging atheism. Usually the task is to understand someone's claims about atheists rather than claims of god(s) so that's of course completely useless to anyone. Regardless of the unfulfilling nature of participating in debates against atheists as an atheist who knows better, I'm still interested in beliefs in the various gods and religions and quite open to proof that I might be wrong.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What apologists do is quote mine some articles
That would require actually QUOTING. This is quote-mining:
"On the basis of their developmental evidence, some authors have consequently raised the question of young children being “intuitive theists” (Kelemen, 2004) or “born believers” (Barrett, 2007)."
Kiessling, F., & Perner, J. (2014). God–Mother–Baby: What Children Think They Know. Child development, 85(4), 1601-1616.

If someone like "LegionOnomaMoi" would actually read the articles s/he proposed
I've not only read them, in 1 case I was involved in the study and in cases that I didn't list I worked with the authors (admittedly, not with respect to CSR).

it would become clear that someone like Dr. Paul Bloom says that religions are nothing special
Which explains his various papers on the subject...For example:
"The proposal explored here is that humans possess early emerging and universal cognitive biases, including hypersensitivity to agency, a natural propensity to see non-random design as caused by an intelligent designer, and body–soul dualism. These make it natural to believe in gods and spirits, in the divine creation of the universe, and in an afterlife. These are the seeds from which religion grows.
This proposal is controversial. Some would argue that it attributes too much to young children and that I am underestimating the role of culture and learning. Others would argue that it attributes too little: that there are specific adaptations that are unique to religion. Distinguishing between such candidate theories is perhaps the main research program of the cognitive science of religion."
Bloom, P. (2009). Religion belief as an evolutionary accident. In M.J. Murray and J. Schloss (Eds.). The Believing Primate. Oxford University Press.

(also, even in his talk "Religion is nothing special" he describes how religious beliefs are special).

However, while Bloom clearly regards religion "special" in particular sense (a human universal, albeit an "evolutionary accident" or "byproduct" as opposed to an adaptive trait), he doesn't go as far as other cognitive scientists/evolutionary psychologists here in that he doesn't believe children are "intuitive theists" or otherwise predisposed towards belief in God:
"Consider belief in a divine creator. Young children are prone to generate purpose-based explanations of the origins of natural objects and biological kinds. They believe, for example, that clouds are ‘for raining’ and animals are ‘to go in the zoo’ [9]. However, there is no evidence that children spontaneously come to believe in one or more divine creators.
and that kids can be primed for any catch words or concepts. They are kids."
Banerjee, K. & Bloom, P. (2013). Would Tarzan believe in God. The conditions for the emergence of religious belief. Trends in Cognitive Science, 17, 7-8.

But his work does contribute to the cognitive science of religion, and more specifically to the view that humans do indeed have some sort of innate proclivity towards religious beliefs. His beliefs about these innate proclivities are fairly mild: he doesn't hold, as many of his colleagues do, that religion emerged due to its evolutionary advantage nor that Tarzan would believe in god because of humans innately believe in god (I didn't choose Tarzan here, he did: Banerjee, K. & Bloom, P. (2013). Would Tarzan believe in God. The conditions for the emergence of religious belief. Trends in Cognitive Science, 17, 7-8).

Dr. Olivera Petrovich also laments that there is no research for psychologists to dig into and determine where this religious belief comes from.
There is an entire field devoted to this question:
Barrett, J. L. (2011). Cognitive science of religion: Looking back, looking forward. Journal for the scientific study of Religion, 50(2), 229-239.


It is impossible to measure religious indoctrination and kids are prone to fantasy-based intention and purpose oriented explanations. Useless for any scientific research.
Wrong.

What they ignore is that tribes without any exposure to gods quite happily live without them and don't develop a craving for the super-natural.
This wasn't even ignored by armchair historians, ethnologists, etc. of the early 20th century, such as Campbell or Evans-Pritchard.

It's sad to see some apologists try and wriggle in their favourite god here somehow and at all cost.
I wouldn't know. I'm agnostic, and don't believe in or favor any god.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Bingo!

and there is a parable about casting seed in every direction.
what comes of it is influenced by the immediate surroundings.

but once the idea takes root....uprooting the foundation tears it all down.

We humans are made to be curious....even as death is noted as pending.
I refer to Genesis Chapter Two.

We humans have developed innate curiosity. It's what puts us at the top of the food chain. Curiosity leads to innovation and exploration.

Without it we would still be living in caves or climbing around trees.

Belief is the result of someone taking advantage of someones curiosity. 'You want to know how we came to be here? I have all the answers. And it only cost a small stipend every week. A mere 10%. A pittance really!'

Science is the true pursuit rooted in curiosity. Everything else is make believe.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
We humans have developed innate curiosity. It's what puts us at the top of the food chain. Curiosity leads to innovation and exploration.

Without it we would still be living in caves or climbing around trees.

Belief is the result of someone taking advantage of someones curiosity. 'You want to know how we came to be here? I have all the answers. And it only cost a small stipend every week. A mere 10%. A pittance really!'

Science is the true pursuit rooted in curiosity. Everything else is make believe.
I understand....yes I do.

but my line of reasoning does not dismiss the Presence of a God.

I believe in spiritual life.
This form in which we wander about, is the means of generating unique spirit with each individual.
The clay will stiffen and break.
What you really are then comes forth.

Chapter Two of Genesis is a brief description of that moment if intervention.....
when Man (already aware of death) was given a choice.
Partake the knowledge of good and evil....and die....
or just continue

We chose.

I speak to include the living present for we carry that same trait.
We ARE that creature seeking knowledge.....even if it kills us.
 
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Tyrax

Hedonistic Ascetic
Not sure if somebody has already written this, because damn it, someone really should have.

Agnosticism is the default. Agnosticism holds a completely neutral stance, where neither atheism or theism is considered correct. When you choose to believe or not believe (which honestly IS a choice, considering it to not be a choice takes away free will from the individual) you have choosen something to believe in, and in this discussion, you have chosen a side.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Not sure if somebody has already written this, because damn it, someone really should have.

Agnosticism is the default. Agnosticism holds a completely neutral stance, where neither atheism or theism is considered correct. When you choose to believe or not believe (which honestly IS a choice, considering it to not be a choice takes away free will from the individual) you have choosen something to believe in, and in this discussion, you have chosen a side.
I didn't use the word agnostic....

but we did toss babies back and forth, like crazy!

hold still....someone will soon appear and throw one at you!
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
If one believes in the existence of angels,
one might just be an agnostic.
Think about the size of the theist 'god's' throne !
And on and on !
~
'mud
 

StopS

Member
That would require actually QUOTING.

What research?
By whom?
Published and peer reviewed where?
With what data and what assumptions?

Where is the answer to my questions?

All you provided were quote-mines and opinions.

I've not only read them, in 1 case I was involved in the study and in cases that I didn't list I worked with the authors (admittedly, not with respect to CSR).

So why not bring the research as you have claimed?
"you may wish to have a familiarity with the scientific research relevant here"
Where is it?

Yes, I've read some of Bloom's stuff and he's a genius on the one hand and a total fool on the other.
But I am not interested in personal opinions, I want research, documented research and not this ridiculous stuff proposed by deceptive people like Barrett. I don't want research where 20 people were asked a question, but statistically relevant experiments. I know about the mommy questions. That's deceptive, not science.


There is an entire field devoted to this question:
Barrett, J. L. (2011). Cognitive science of religion: Looking back, looking forward. Journal for the scientific study of Religion, 50(2), 229-239.

So where is the research?
 
Atheism most certainly is a "default" position---at least, to the extent that the following are default positions:
  • A-"firebreathing-dragons-are-real"-ism
  • A-"there's-an-invisible-leprechaun-on-my-shoulder"-ism
  • A-"I'm-a-robot"-ism
To claim that atheism is not the default state, you have only two choices:
  1. Argue that evidence (of some kind) distinguishes belief in god from belief in firebreathing dragons, leprechauns, robot solipsism---or any other member of a set of (literally) infinite possible things to believe in. But this concedes that belief in gods is a positive claim, which requires evidence, and for which the default position is---by definition---non-belief.
  2. Argue that nothing distinguishes belief in god from belief in anything else: every member of that infinite set of all possible possibilities? However fanciful, they're all equally likely. Except... in a set of infinite possibilities, there exist infinite contradictions for any one member---and this means, if all of those possibilities are equally likely, that any one possibility is rendered infinitely unlikely by its own infinite contradictions. After all, if we have contradictory beliefs and no evidence to distinguish one from another... we're just playing the odds. And so every indistinguishable possibility gets dragged into an indecipherable mess of background static.
In either case, nonbelief---a-"whatever"-ism---is the default. Hell, a-"Theory of Gravity"-ism is the default: Evidence, and evidence alone, has the power to elevate a possibility from background static, and it's why no one's an a-"gravity"-ist today. (Has it really taken a bajillion posts to get us here?)
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What research?
You could start with the small sample of papers I've cited from so far, from those that explicitly ascribe to humans a form of intuitive theism to those that regard religious tendencies to be an evolutionary advantage to those (like Bloom) who consider it an evolutionary byproduct.
Mostly evolutionary psychologists, cognitive neuroscientists, developmental psychologists, etc.
Published and peer reviewed where?
In hundreds and hundreds of papers in journals such as Journal of Experimental Psychology, PNAS (for the first example I found among the papers I have that is available for free and is on the neurophysiological or cognitive basis for religious belief, see here; this is the same criterion used for other examples I've linked to), Nature (e.g., Boyer, P. (2008). Being human: Religion: bound to believe?. Nature, 455(7216), 1038-1039.), Psychological Science (e.g., here), Religion, Brain, & Behavior (e.g., here), Trends in Cognitive Science, Religion, Journal for the Scientific Religion, Personality and Individual Differences, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, Behavioral and Brain Sciences, Biology and Philosophy, Developmental Science, British Journal of Psychology, ...and I'm sick of going through the papers I have to give you journal names.

With what data and what assumptions?
Let me condense many hundreds of papers in multiple fields to answer this question: with data and the assumptions of the scientific fields in which the researchers work. If you want more, try reading the research (or buying some popular science book on the subject).
Where is the answer to my questions?
In many hundreds of peer-reviewed papers in dozens and dozens of journals published over decades.

All you provided were quote-mines and opinions.
I provided quotes from peer-reviewed research. I also provided links to peer-reviewed research. I'm not going to spoon-feed you the whole spectrum of findings in a multidisciplinary field.
So why not bring the research as you have claimed?
I did. You then proceeded to claim I either quote-mined it or that it was opinioned, based on the fact that you hadn't read the requisite studies and aren't familiar with CSR or the scientific study of belief in god(s) or religion more generally.
Where is it?
I provided you with a link to a review of the research specifically in CSR. Read it.
Yes, I've read some of Bloom's stuff and he's a genius on the one hand and a total fool on the other.
He's not a genius, not particularly interesting here, and I suspect you selected that particular article because you could access it for free.
But I am not interested in personal opinions, I want research
...but are apparently incapable of recognizing what research is. What is your field?

documented research and not this ridiculous stuff proposed by deceptive people like Barrett.
And the basis for this slander?
 
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I'm not going to spoon-feed you the whole spectrum of findings in a multidisciplinary field.
... then do not rely on them in a debate. Duh.

... and I suspect you selected that particular article because you could access it for free.
Well now you're just being a [REDACTED], and you should apologize. Ugh, you've even made me edit a mean-spirited "Duh" into the paragraph above---hardly the intellectual-ninja ideal to which I aspire.

Anyways, can we get back on topic? As in, the one I soundly and completely laid to rest a few short posts ago?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
... then do not rely on them in a debate.
How could I possibly rely on that which I don't supply?


Well now you're just being a [REDACTED], and you should apologize.
I should apologize to someone who insults and demeans the work of an accomplished researcher as not merely opinion but also dismisses without any basis or justification his work with the characterization that it is
ridiculous stuff proposed by deceptive people like Barrett.

Can we get back on topic? As in, the one I soundly and completely laid to rest a few short posts ago?
Would that be the laughable little post where you used a affixation as an argument?
 
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