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Atheism-vague thread.

CaptainBritain

Active Member
CB,I'm glad you see the rest of it is poppycock, but I am curious why you don't think that particular sentence, peeping out through the rest of the manure in that chapter, is not poppycock? If it doesn't mean what the author clearly intended it to mean in context of the paragraph, what do you think it means? Or, if you prefer, what different idea did that sentence inspire in you

Well it led me to think of the finality of death and how it effects the minds of the more stricter atheists, i know there is the same proportion of bad guys in all walks of life, Christians included, but our moral codes, views on the afterlife and ways we view the world are very well discussed and laid out in the Bible for all to read, sure we have many interpretations of it but its out there.

The phrase i chose was probably crap but it did atleast inspire to look a bit closer at the Atheist perspective in life so not all is bad.
But i picked and thats that, if we could drop the phrase the source etc and reach the goal of people like me getting to know you guys and your world views better that will suit me fine.
I only found while looking for stuff about the 50,000 year old tree thread.
And look at it this way my mistake will likely gain Ham more foes than friends so all is not bad.

To move on, for an Atheist where is the morality born from in the context of one life and as long as the police do not catch you, your home free.
What sources do you look to?
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Most Christian moral beliefs - chastity, honesty, compassion, charity - are ideals that have been upheld by cultures worldwide throughout history. Practiced? Maybe not. Usually not, in fact. But these ideals have stood the test of time. When we practice them, our lives and the lives of others are usually bettered.

True.

They are ideals that have been held up by cultures with foundations contradicting Christianity and by Atheists as well.

In other words......you just reduced your own religion to irrelevancy.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Well it led me to think of the finality of death and how it effects the minds of the more stricter atheists

Well, the only reasonable step one can make from a belief that death is final is that we should therefore treat life as sacred and not throw it away on warfare and violence. Nor should we accept the misery and suffering of other living things while we are able to prevent it.

Granted, there are both believers and non-believers who have no concern for the misery and suffering of other living things - you'll find people of (almost) every philosophical stripe who have no problem with things like battery farms, war or the death penalty. This only illustrates that the attribute of callousness is independent of one's ideas about death.

But i picked and thats that, if we could drop the phrase the source etc and reach the goal of people like me getting to know you guys and your world views better that will suit me fine.
I find that dodgy - kind of like someone taking a phrase about the inferiority of Jews out of Mein Kampf and then saying "forget the source - let's just talk about the sentence I quoted". But fine, if you want to look only at how a single life / final death / no Thor, Diana, Allah, etc philosophy affects people's ethics, that's what we'll do.

And look at it this way my mistake will likely gain Ham more foes than friends so all is not bad.
Ham?

To move on, for an Atheist where is the morality born from in the context of one life and as long as the police do not catch you, your home free.
What sources do you look to?
Well, I'm going to have to ignore the bold and respond to the rest, since the bold bit doesn't make any sense at all. (It isn't atheists whose behavior is motivated by fear of authority and retribution, generally speaking).

Broadly speaking, atheists have "ethics", not "morals". The wiki on ethics is pretty good, so I'll just link to it.

However, it's not necessary to "look to" any particular branch of philosophy to be (or become) an ethical person. For most people (whether religious or not) the foundation for our ethics as adults is laid out in childhood through the behavior of our parents. For people of a contemplative bent, even those who were brought up in an unethical environment, the benefit of alleviating suffering and misery is quite obvious once you stop to consider it, even for a moment. It's not exactly rocket science. Do you pet the dog or do you kick it? Do you slap your kids or give them a hug? You won't find any answers to these daily questions in your Bible. In fact, the Bible will tell you how to go about selling your own daughter. Why don't Christians sell their daughters? Because it's unethical. Plain and simple. Christians don't give a toss whether the Bible says selling your daughter is a great idea - they know it's just wrong.

Atheists are the same. If a book, or a priest, or a politician, or a friend tells you to do something that is an outrage to your conscience, you just don't do it.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
What is death?

Is death the end of life?
Is death the begining of something new?
Is death the end?
Is death a continuation?

You may find that atheists don't agree on what death is. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. That is all.

No religion including atheism is a philosophy. Philosophy's do not require belief at all.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
... for an Atheist where is the morality born from in the context of one life and as long as the police do not catch you, your home free.
What sources do you look to?
I don’t think that what source that atheists look to for their morality differs in any way from the sources that theists look to for their morality. Nor do I think there is any difference between the morality of Atheists and Theists.

Would it shock you if I told you that I am an Atheists and one of the sources I use for the basis of my morality is the Bible? I do, it is not my main source and I also apply the test of reason, evidence and experience to it. Many verses and chapters in the Bible provide an excellent source for morality, and many of course don’t. And it is not the only religious text that influences my morality, I also use the Dhammapada and the Tao Te Ching and other religous texts. I am also influence by moral philosophers such as Immanuel Kant and John Stuart Mill and countless others. I am not limited to one book, one source, one tradition, one culture. And all of these sources must also pass the test of reason.

Not saying i agree with it as i understand the Atheist mind very little (and they struggle with ours too)and the things that govern it, larger part of the reason for the thread.
No human being ever fully understands the mind of another human being, in fact no human being ever fully understands their own mind. But I don’t think that this Atheist/Theist divide an insurmountable barrier to understanding. I think I would have more difficulty understanding a conservative atheists than I would understanding a liberal theist. Our morality in particular is often not very different. We base our morality on reason and experience and on our values, whether we believe in “God” or not.

And be careful with that police reference. I know many Atheist who accuse Theists of having no sense of morality, only a fear of being caught and punished. I am not one of them, I don’t believe that is true. Even though I have had many conversations with Theists who have tried to convince me that they would commit all kinds of terrible crimes (rape, theft, murder) if they didn’t have “God” threatening them, I don’t believe that they would. Reasonable people often share extremely similar moral values.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I won't respond to your other points because I can't quote them the way you've written them. I can't help noticing that you appear to believe in the legalization of drugs and prostitution yourself, though. Am I right?

As a Christian, I don't care if your brother smokes weed or not. I don't have any desire for him to be jailed for it

I got a better idea - how 'bout you help your sister OUT of a life of prostitution? Sheeze! If she's stupid enough to have sex with strangers, she needs professional intervention

So, assuming you are for the legalization of drugs and prostitution does that make you a dangerous, immoral, death-worshiper yourself, as the author suggests?

BTW, morphine doesn't work - it eases pain somewhat, but doesn't get rid of it altogether. Also, your own omnipotent God is the busiest abortionist of all, causing 40-60 % of pregnancies to miscarry. If he is so merciful, why shouldn't we be?

Well, I don't necessarily agree with the whole concept of the original quote, and I am also personally opposed to speech that is hatefilled and divisive. I agree with others here who are pointing out that atheism isn't a philosophy per se. I hate broad generalizations that propagate stereotypes about large, diverse groups of people.

As for my own personal point of view about prostitution and drug use - personally I am opposed to those things, meaning that I won't engage in either practice and I will discourage my children from doing so.

From a societal point of view, I think it's a waste of tax money to make these thing illegal. I believe that adults should be allowed to make their own choices about nearly everything - as long as they don't hurt other innocent people in the process. This includes sleeping with whoever they want to as long as the other person consents. This also includes putting anything they want into their nose, veins, or lungs.

Adults should also expect to live with the results and consequences of their personal choices, and not expect others subsidize their chosen lifestyle.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
i understand the Atheist mind very little...and the things that govern it
Every Christian on this thread knows exactly how atheists think because you take the same view of other Gods. If I told you that I believe the sun rises and sets because it is really a giant flaming chariot driven by a god named Helios each day, what would you think? You would think "what a ridiculous idea! There is no evidence whatsoever that the sun in our sky is really a giant flaming chariot. In fact, science shows us that is not the case at all! That was simply a story that the ancient Greeks believed because they did not understand how the world operated." When it comes to Helios, you are an atheist and your reasons are just like our reasons for not believing in the Abrahamic God.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
To move on, for an Atheist where is the morality born from in the context of one life and as long as the police do not catch you, your home free. What sources do you look to?

Give me a break. Invest a little thought, would ya? :rolleyes: Atheists derive their morals and ethics from their innate compassion, empathy and humanity, their reason and logic, deduction of cause and effect, and action and reaction, mutual and rational self-interest, the honor, honesty, dignity and integrity that comes naturally with self worth and self respect, etc.

I don't need an invisible sky daddy to give me a postmortem cookie in order to be a good person.

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." -Albert Einstein
 
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The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
... If anything, I would say that the abrahamic religions are a "philosophy of death" since they abhor their own earthly existence so much.
I've never thought of it that way before, but I think that may be one of the most accurate statements I've ever seen on RF.

Very well put, indeed.
 

CaptainBritain

Active Member
Give me a break. Invest a little thought, would ya? :rolleyes: Atheists derive their morals and ethics from their innate compassion, empathy and humanity, their reason and logic, deduction of cause and effect, and action and reaction, mutual and rational self-interest, the honor, honesty, dignity and integrity that comes naturally with self worth and self respect, etc.

I don't need an invisible sky daddy to give me a postmortem cookie in order to be a good person.

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." -Albert Einstein


Now listen ive just about had enough of teenage foot stamping, im asking questions to the respective group of people im interested in finding out about, if you cant just take the question and deal with it for what it is fine, dont bother with it atall.
Ive not once had a dig, and if my questions are not great so what? leave em alone.
Im starting to wonder what on earth posessed me to show an interest atall.
The thread is dead as far as im concerned, though it has gave me a glimpse of what the phrase might mean,
Was looking for insight not sarcasm, but hey, life is a let down at times.
Not to worry.:rolleyes:
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Now listen ive just about had enough of teenage foot stamping, im asking questions to the respective group of people im interested in finding out about, if you cant just take the question and deal with it for what it is fine, dont bother with it atall.
Ive not once had a dig, and if my questions are not great so what? leave em alone.
Im starting to wonder what on earth posessed me to show an interest atall.
The thread is dead as far as im concerned, though it has gave me a glimpse of what the phrase might mean,
Was looking for insight not sarcasm, but hey, life is a let down at times.
Not to worry.:rolleyes:

That's a little disingenuous, Cap'n Brit, considering your source for the quote was blatant anti-atheist hate literature, and you volunteered you equate atheist morality with "as long as the police don't catch me, I can do anything!"

If you honestly don't understand why atheists find that offensive, and why they're giving you a dose of your own medicine by being equally flip and dismissive of your invisible sky daddy with his cookies, then I don't know how talking to atheists to "try to understand" is going to help you.

How do you feel when people say if you believe in God, you'll believe in anything? Or if you need a preacher to tell you what a book says you should do, you can't read, or think for yourself? Well, that's how atheists feel when theists start blathering on about how atheists couldn't possibly be moral because they have nobody telling them what to do. Annoyed.

And why are you abandoning your own thread, now that people are explaining where you, and I, and everybody else regardless of their beliefs, gets their sense of right and wrong? Did you not want to understand to begin with? Or what? Do you have nothing to say about the daughter-selling rules in the Bible? Nothing to say about the claim there's no difference between where the religious and non-religious get their morals? Nothing to say about your own topic, apart from a vague insinuation that the fact you've managed to be annoying somehow "proves" something to you about atheism?
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
True.

They are ideals that have been held up by cultures with foundations contradicting Christianity and by Atheists as well.

In other words......you just reduced your own religion to irrelevancy.

How does recognizing that there are truths in other religions reduce my own religion's validity? As a Christian, I am not threatened by shared truths. In fact, I love to find that common ground.

In a way, this validates my faith even more so. I believe that most religions have elements of truth but that Christianity is the fullness of truth.

I respect truth from any source.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
How does recognizing that there are truths in other religions reduce my own religion's validity? As a Christian, I am not threatened by shared truths. In fact, I love to find that common ground.

In a way, this validates my faith even more so. I believe that most religions have elements of truth but that Christianity is the fullness of truth.

I respect truth from any source.

Even truth that comes from non-religious sources?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Even truth that comes from non-religious sources?

Absolutely. I believe that truth is truth - it is what it is. I believe in absolute values.

Truth can be uncomfortable at times.

Do you see my tag line about "The man who refuses to alter his opinions,"? Most people do not look for truth in order to really FIND it - they look for truth in order to bolster their own agenda and beliefs.

Truth is not cafeteria-style dining.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Absolutely. I believe that truth is truth - it is what it is. I believe in absolute values.

Just checking - I wasn't sure because gnomon specifically mentioned Atheists and they didn't make an appearance in your response to his post. Thanks for clarifying.

Most people do not look for truth in order to really FIND it - they look for truth in order to bolster their own agenda and beliefs.

I certainly agree with you there. :)
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Now listen ive just about had enough of teenage foot stamping, im asking questions to the respective group of people im interested in finding out about, if you cant just take the question and deal with it for what it is fine, dont bother with it atall.
Ive not once had a dig, and if my questions are not great so what? leave em alone.
Im starting to wonder what on earth posessed me to show an interest atall.
The thread is dead as far as im concerned, though it has gave me a glimpse of what the phrase might mean,
Was looking for insight not sarcasm, but hey, life is a let down at times.
Not to worry.:rolleyes:

No. You're questions were answered thoroughly and thoughtfully, so they were handled and dealt with rather well. But it seems you're not satisfied with the answer because I think you were trying to get a one up in. And you did "have a dig". You did say "and as long as the police do not catch you, your home free." which implies you think that without god, a person must be a reckless, nihilistic sociopath. And you would have to had thought there was some truth to the idea that atheism is a "philosophy of death" to even think that such a ridicilous notion was even worth pondering.
 
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fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
The thread is dead as far as im concerned,
Despite the source of the original quote I have tried to give you honest thoughtful responses, and I think that others as well have given you appropriate thoughtful intelligent answers in this thread. I am very sorry and disappointed if you could not find anything useful here. But I would suggest if you really are interested in finding something out you should either try to look a little harder or be a little more specific as to what you are looking for, or both.

Understanding is not always easy, and all the more difficult if you give up so quickly.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Now listen ive just about had enough of teenage foot stamping, im asking questions to the respective group of people im interested in finding out about, if you cant just take the question and deal with it for what it is fine, dont bother with it atall.
Ive not once had a dig, and if my questions are not great so what? leave em alone.
Im starting to wonder what on earth posessed me to show an interest atall.
The thread is dead as far as im concerned, though it has gave me a glimpse of what the phrase might mean,
Was looking for insight not sarcasm, but hey, life is a let down at times.
Not to worry.:rolleyes:

Let me ask you: What would be your reaction if I asked you to comment on the phrase "Christians hate homosexuals"?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
To move on, for an Atheist where is the morality born from in the context of one life and as long as the police do not catch you, your home free.
Funny, that's how I see the theistic morality you're putting forward, at least in the sense that you claim there's no morality without God... IOW, there's no morality without thinking there's a "cop" who's watching all the time. Do you think that your actions come out of anything besides this desire to not run afoul of the celestial police?

What sources do you look to?
The same places everyone does: ourselves, each other.
 
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