Atheism-vague thread.

[Beaudreaux]

im not going to try and convince you about the Bible, but what im trying to say is we're expecting to recieve things from God, wether they be blessings, material needs, revelations etc., without wanting to give anything back, including time, dedication, prayers, acceptance etc.

i do actually think that the ethic of reciprocity can be counted on. I dont expect my boss to reward me without doing a good job. same with God.

I am an atheist. I expect nothing from God because I do not believe he exists. If you are referring to the problem many people have with the concept of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God who stands by idly while millions die of smallpox, then I would submit that if there was such a God, it would not be unreasonable to expect Him to protect his creation from enormous and preventable pain and suffering. Are you saying that God will not prevent disease and natural disaster unless we do the right things?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Maybe it's the reader?

Make that 2 readers, if that's the case.

So, how do you reconcile an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God with Leviticus 20:9-21?

 

[Beaudreaux]

If you wish to be taught something, you might start with learning what "ad hominem" means ... :yes:

It means "Against the Person" and defines an argument that, either through denotation or connotation, attacks the person rather than the issue.

 

[fantome profane]

There's something refreshingly Heinleinesque about your approach, Father Heathen. And I mean that as a compliment.

Now that you mention it I see it too, and it is quite entertaining. But that blunt “nose tweaking” sense of humour does not put him in a good position to complain about Jay’s directness. I am also a fan of Jays and admire his intelligence, knowledge and bluntness. I was quite enjoying these two going at it.

The interesting thing that I am not sure everyone realizes is that (unless I am mistaken) they are both atheists.


Please continue.opcorn:

 

[logician]

Yeah, every posts I've wread from his have been an ad hominem instead of attacking an arguement. I hope he's not getting away with it just cause he's a supporter of the site.

Bingo.

 

[fantome profane]

Ok, lets deal with this. The comment that Jay made that is being referred to as an ad hominem is this one.

I don't, which is precisely why I have such disdain for your comments.

Read it carefully. You may consider it rude, blunt, you may disagree with it. But what is the subject of the statement? Jay is expressing his disdain for Father Heathens “comments”. It is not much of an argument, but it is an argument that is clearly directed at his comments, not at his person.

 

[Alceste]

Ok, lets deal with this. The comment that Jay made that is being referred to as an ad hominem is this one.Read it carefully. You may consider it rude, blunt, you may disagree with it. But what is the subject of the statement? Jay is expressing his disdain for Father Heathens “comments”. It is not much of an argument, but it is an argument that is clearly directed at his comments, not at his person.

Actually, the comment was "maybe it's the reader" in response to "the bible is underwhelming". Carry on.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So, how do you reconcile an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God with Leviticus 20:9-21?

That you find that question at all relevant is more than a little interesting (and perhaps a bit laughable). Why would you pose such a stupid rhetorical to an atheist?

If you're at all interested in my attitude towards Biblical text (and I suspect that you're far more invested in puerile ridicule) feel free to scan ...

• We enter the Torah barefoot.
• Gen 1:1,2 Creation ex nihilo ... NOT (Moses, Earth, Torah, virtual)
• Robert Alter's Book of Psalms

One can approach the Tanakh from a number of different directions, but to suggest that this text, dense with poetry, folk history, sociology, philosophy and symbolism is, ...

... a very unimpressive and underwhelming work.

evinces nothing so much as an adolescent and petulant ignorance enlisted in the service of a sadly superficial atheism.

 

[Alceste]

• We enter the Torah barefoot.
• Gen 1:1,2 Creation ex nihilo ... NOT (Moses, Earth, Torah, virtual)
• Robert Alter's Book of Psalms

One can approach the Tanakh from a number of different directions, but to suggest that this text, dense with poetry, folk history, sociology, philosophy and symbolism is, ...evinces nothing so much as an adolescent and petulant ignorance enlisted in the service of a sadly superficial atheism.

Dang, Jay, I find those threads even more boring than the Bible, which is pretty blooming boring. Nothing is more soporific to me than semantic dissections of the various translations of a really, really boring book.

Ever stop to consider whether people might enjoy a different literary aesthetic to your good self, and that their differing taste is not a reflection on their intelligence or character? Me, I have nothing against old books. For example, I've read dozens of translations of the Tao te Ching, which predates the Bible by hundreds of years. I have no lack of interest in the cultural significance of a good book, no matter how old it is. The Bible falls well short of my definition of what makes a book "good". And I've read thousands of books, from every age in human history and every corner of the world, in three languages. The Bible is the most boring of them all. In fact, I skipped over more of the Bible due to tedium, irrelevance and repetition than I did of Ayn Rand's objectivist ranting monologues in all her books combined, and that's saying a lot.

 

[Father Heathen]

Jay, you're so pretentious it's embarrassing. You might want to do yourself a favor and stop.

 

[fantome profane]

Actually, the comment was "maybe it's the reader" in response to "the bible is underwhelming". Carry on.

I stand corrected.:sorry1: Please forgive and ignore my previous post in this thread.

But still, ad hominem aside (and I agree now that it is an ad hominem) there is a valid point here that different people will get different value from the same text. I know for example that Logician found Dawkins most recent book to be extremely valuable whereas my impression was more mixed.

This thread was started as an attempt to gain an understanding of the “atheistic mind” and I think the starter of this thread and others who are trying to understand the same thing ought to take a good look at what is going on here. Here we have one atheists who has a deep respect for religious traditions, and another atheists who has an strong disdain for anything religious. I find it a fascinating study in contrast. And this is just one area of possible difference.

 

[Father Heathen]

and another atheists who has an strong disdain for anything religious.

That's not entirely accurate. I respect and admire a lot of religions, just not the ones that wallow in willful ignorance and self deceit, reject science, and have condoned and promoted genocide, torture, rape, slavery, misogyny, homophobia and countless other forms of cruelty and injustice.

I don't respect such things because unlike some I have a sense dignity and standards. If that upsets people, good.

 

[fantome profane]

That's not entirely accurate. I respect and admire a lot of religions, just not the ones that wallow in willful ignorance and self deceit, reject science, and have condoned and promoted genocide, torture, rape, slavery, misogyny, homophobia and countless other forms of cruelty and injustice.

I don't respect such things because unlike some I have standards and dignity. If that upsets people, good.

Sorry (I seem to be on a roll here) I didn’t mean to over simplify your position. But still I find the contrast fascinating. And a very clear demonstration of what we have been saying that atheism is not a philosophy.

For the record my own position is that I agree with you that the Bible (old and new testament) does everything you say it does. It promotes genocide, torture, rape, slavery, misogyny, homophobia and countless other forms of cruelty and injustice and contains many scientific and factual errors. But I also find it to contain a great deal of beauty and wisdom and a fascinating insight into a different culture.

 

[Father Heathen]

Sorry (I seem to be on a roll here) I didn’t mean to over simplify your position. But still I find the contrast fascinating. And a very clear demonstration of what we have been saying that atheism is not a philosophy.

For the record my own position is that I agree with you that the Bible (old and new testament) does everything you say it does. It promotes genocide, torture, rape, slavery, misogyny, homophobia and countless other forms of cruelty and injustice and contains many scientific and factual errors. But I also find it to contain a great deal of beauty and wisdom and a fascinating insight into a different culture.

Sure, the bible has a few good things in it, but they're hardly original or exclusive (in fact sizable portions of the bible are 'borrowed') and certainly don't redeem the whole.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I stand corrected.:sorry1: Please forgive and ignore my previous post in this thread.[/FONT]

Stand corrected again. An ad hominem is an argument. I did no more than make a perfectly valid observation, that being that one's appreciation of something depends in great part on one's understanding and bias. I have a plethora of young grandchildren who wold almost certainly find Shakespeare or ee cummings "underwhelming." There was no ad hominem.

 

[Caladan]

I read the following phrase today (will not state where as I do not want to cloud the issue)

Phrase: Atheism is the philosophy of death.

You will note I am a Christian, but trust me im not having a dig at you, I just felt the above phrase was quite neat and to the point and perhaps worth discussing.

I havent read ALL posts in this thread, but lets consider the OP for a second.
as a Christian, you should be aware that entire dogma of your religion revolves around a redeemer that had to die for your salvation, the crucifixion is of the most dramatized events of this dogma, many view that as the true philosophy of death.
While atheism usually involves pro active elements such as exploration of life and living things, yes and death aswell, which is a necessary and natural part of Life.

 

[Beaudreaux]

That you find that question at all relevant is more than a little interesting (and perhaps a bit laughable). Why would you pose such a stupid rhetorical to an atheist?

It's not a rhetorical question (I was actually looking for an answer) and I don't consider it to be stupid. You suggested that the fault was not in the biblical text, but in the reader, suggesting that FH was wrong to state that the Bible itself was unimpressive and underwhelming. I wanted to know why you would disagree with him when the Bible clearly contains moral advice I think most modern people would consider "underwhelming". I did knot realize you were an atheist, though I suspect that I would have asked you that question anyway. It's interesting to me that you have such an emotional response to what I thought was a simple question, but everyone is different.

If you're at all interested in my attitude towards Biblical text (and I suspect that you're far more invested in puerile ridicule) feel free to scan ...

Don't get how I was ridiculing you. Don't take this the wrong way, but you're more sensitive than my 5 year old nephew, and he runs crying into the other room if you laugh at one of his farts. I was interested in your attitude toward Biblical texts, but now I find I'm just fascinated by your attitude...

• We enter the Torah barefoot.
• Gen 1:1,2 Creation ex nihilo ... NOT (Moses, Earth, Torah, virtual)
• Robert Alter's Book of Psalms

It would be cool if you could use your own words here. We all are....

One can approach the Tanakh from a number of different directions, but to suggest that this text, dense with poetry, folk history, sociology, philosophy and symbolism is, ...evinces nothing so much as an adolescent and petulant ignorance enlisted in the service of a sadly superficial atheism.

Man are you p*ssed! Sheesh! Well, I don't know what to tell you, bro. Glad you think the Bible is great. I also feel that there are beautiful sections of prose, poetry and SOME good moral teaching, but I completely understand FH's statement. It is HARDLY the moral authority people claim.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Stand corrected again. An ad hominem is an argument. I did no more than make a perfectly valid observation, that being that one's appreciation of something depends in great part on one's understanding and bias. I have a plethora of young grandchildren who wold almost certainly find Shakespeare or ee cummings "underwhelming." There was no ad hominem.

Oh thank God! For a minute there, I thought you were saying that his view of scripture evinces nothing so much as an adolescent and petulant ignorance enlisted in the service of a sadly superficial atheism. Good to know you are not attacking the person.

 

[roli]

Actually I have no particular specifications for God, other than existence. I'm quite willing to change for Him. All I ask is that He exist. Got any evidence that He does?

I'll go out on a limb here Auto, but is this a rhetorical question ?
if not ....."What evidence is it that would satisfy your inquiring mind, Auto" ?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I read the following phrase today (will not state where as I do not want to cloud the issue)

Phrase: Atheism is the philosophy of death.

I guess the cat's out of the bag. I might as well confess all at this point - there's no use in continuing the lies.

Yes, we atheists follow a philosophy of death. We believe that death is the end of your existence, forever. This being the case, you should try to live every day to the fullest and try to be "in the present" - to experience and enjoy life, day-to-day.

Also, since this is your one shot, make the most of it. Since we don't believe in a magic afterlife paradise, we don't feel you should give in to circumstances and live out the remainder of your life in misery, because there is no big relief or reward at the end. If you want to make life better for you and yours, then get up off your butt and do something about it. If something in life is causing you misery, then change it.

Death is waiting for all of us, and you only get one life, so make sure that you make it count. This is our macabre philosophy of death.