Atheist by birth?

[idav]

If left to black and white, either you do believe or you don't, then in this black and white mode is where I come in and say, don't believe, then don't discuss. If do discuss, you enter into gray territory, and I'll be glad to point that out each and every time you enter into discussion. Want to fall back after that discussion to 'default' position of 'do not believe' that's fine. But while in black and white mode, you can claim all you desire you lack belief, evidence is insufficient, yadda yadda yadda. Yet in same mindset, you show up 'way over your head' when making claims of, "I would think God would reveal himself with a chariot flying overhead and delivering presents on New Years Eve, if he truly existed."

One gray area would be "I don't know" but doesn't stop a person from answering yes or no to the question of belief.

 

[Falvlun]

We are not talking generalities but rather about one specific belief: Do you hold the belief that god exists? Yes or No. It is pretty straight forward. You either believe (whatever the strength of that conviction might be), or you don't. Now, I can see there being variation as to the strength or conviction of a belief once you actually have a belief. But that is still a dichotomous position regarding belief/no belief. You either have it (whatever the conviction) or you do not.

I agree. Which, to be honest, is why I find positions such as yours to be a little inconsistent. You do not need to be 100% certain of the truth of your belief in order to have a belief. As long as you fall on either side of 50%, you've got a belief, it just might not be a particularly strong one.

Answers such as "I don't know" or "I believe that gods are a possibility", are not an affirmative answer.

"I don't know" is not an affirmative answer, but it may or may not say something about your beliefs. You can say "I don't know" and still have a belief-- that is my position. "I don't know" can also mean "I don't have an opinion" which would be synonomous with "I don't have a belief". Depends how you are using it.

"I believe that gods are a possibility" is indeed an affirmative answer. It is a statement regarding your beliefs: the belief that gods are possible.

Heck, as an atheist, I don't "know" if gods exist, and I believe that gods are a possibility as well. So? Do I currently believe that a god actually does in fact exist. No. Not yet.

No it doesn't. I too believe that gods are a possiblity. However, I think the probability of their existence is very low. There is a difference between possibility and probability. How probable do you believe the existence of gods to be?

Umm, I'm not sure that's quite right. I think believe might be higher than "above fifty" because There are thniks you think are probably more likely than not that you wouldn't say you believed were true, just kind of had a hunch. And everything below believe is not believe btu an equal distance below 50 as believe is above 50 there is another line where you cross into "believe not"

If you have an opinion, you have a belief. And the only way you don't have an opinion is if you are at 50%, where you essentially find both sides to be equally convincing (or equally absurd).

The level of conviction is the only thing that really changes along the continuum. The closer you are to either end, the more sure you are of your belief. The closer you are to 50%, the more unsure you are. In other words, an 80% and a 20% would have an equal level of conviction; one (the 80%) simply holds the positive belief, and the other (20%) holds the negative belief.

 

[Acim]

One gray area would be "I don't know" but doesn't stop a person from answering yes or no to the question of belief.

"I don't know" is whole other can of worms.

In some ways it is easier to work with (and through) but given the ability to pretend not to know, it has profound influence on all forms of thought. It makes 'lack of belief' a relatively plausible position.

At some level, one has to know that they don't know, to make 'unknowing' appear to work.

 

[Falvlun]

"I don't know" is whole other can of worms.

In some ways it is easier to work with (and through) but given the ability to pretend not to know, it has profound influence on all forms of thought. It makes 'lack of belief' a relatively plausible position.

At some level, one has to know that they don't know, to make 'unknowing' appear to work.

I don't see much wrong with "I don't know".

For example, if you asked me "Do I, Acim, like chocolate chip cookies?", I would reply "I don't know", because I have no reason to believe that you do, and no reason to believe that you don't. I literally have absolutely no opinion, no bias, as to whether you like chocolate chip cookies or not.

 

[laffy_taffy]

I agree. Which, to be honest, is why I find positions such as yours to be a little inconsistent. You do not need to be 100% certain of the truth of your belief in order to have a belief. As long as you fall on either side of 50%, you've got a belief, it just might not be a particularly strong one.

50% of what? What are you talking about? Remember that we all start out without a belief in god. We can then either remain without a belief in the existence of god, or slowly (or even quickly) be convinced to cross the threshold to belief.

"I believe that gods are a possibility" is indeed an affirmative answer. It is a statement regarding your beliefs: the belief that gods are possible.

But we're not asking the question: "Do you believe gods are possible?" We're asking the question: "Do you hold the belief that a god exists?" Why would someone who believes in god answer the yes or no question with "I believe that gods are a "possibility"? They would answer the question "yes." Saying that gods are "possible" shows you that they don't yet hold the belief that god does in fact exist. Once they cross that threshold into believing that god exists, then they would no longer be referring to god as a "possibility".

No it doesn't. I too believe that gods are a possiblity. However, I think the probability of their existence is very low. There is a difference between possibility and probability. How probable do you believe the existence of gods to be?


If you have an opinion, you have a belief. And the only way you don't have an opinion is if you are at 50%, where you essentially find both sides to be equally convincing (or equally absurd).

The level of conviction is the only thing that really changes along the continuum. The closer you are to either end, the more sure you are of your belief. The closer you are to 50%, the more unsure you are. In other words, an 80% and a 20% would have an equal level of conviction; one (the 80%) simply holds the positive belief, and the other (20%) holds the negative belief.

I still don't know what this whole 50% stuff you keep referring to is about. Either end of what? You have either been persuaded to hold a belief in the existence of god (whatever that conviction might be) or you have not yet been convinced to cross that threshold and you remain without a belief in the existence of god.

 

[SPACKlick]

If you have an opinion, you have a belief. And the only way you don't have an opinion is if you are at 50%, where you essentially find both sides to be equally convincing (or equally absurd).

No, I have a hunch that there will be sausages in the grill when I get home. I'd say It's slightly more likely than not that there will be. But I don't believe there will be sausages. I'm so unsure about it I wouldn't call it a belief. You can think something is slightly more probable than not without it being a belief.

The level of conviction is the only thing that really changes along the continuum. The closer you are to either end, the more sure you are of your belief. The closer you are to 50%, the more unsure you are. In other words, an 80% and a 20% would have an equal level of conviction; one (the 80%) simply holds the positive belief, and the other (20%) holds the negative belief.

There really are 2 scales. There's the probability you think something is and how sure you are about that probability.

 

[Falvlun]

50% of what? What are you talking about?

I explained that in post 715. It's the image of a spectrum I am using to explain my belief about belief. Perhaps a pretty picture would help.

Beliefs are based on which state of affairs we find to be most likely-- most probable. If we find something to be highly improbable, we have a negative belief-- we do not believe it. If we find something to be highly likely, we have a positive belief-- we do believe it.

There are different strengths of convicition in different beliefs. You may think something is only moderately or slightly likely, or that something is only slightly or moderately unlikely. Those two unlabeled hashmarks represent two equally strong beliefs, just at different ends of the spectrum (ie, 75% and 25%).

The 50% mark would indicate that you find something neither probable nor improbable. You have no opinion: both stances are equally convincing and equally absurd.

 

[Willamena]

I explained that in post 715. It's the image of a spectrum I am using to explain my belief about belief. Perhaps a pretty picture would help.

Beliefs are based on which state of affairs we find to be most likely-- most probable. If we find something to be highly improbable, we have a negative belief-- we do not believe it. If we find something to be highly likely, we have a positive belief-- we do believe it.

There are different strengths of convicition in different beliefs. You may think something is only moderately or slightly likely, or that something is only slightly or moderately unlikely. Those two unlabeled hashmarks represent two equally strong beliefs, just at different ends of the spectrum (ie, 75% and 25%).

The 50% mark would indicate that you find something neither probable nor improbable. You have no opinion: both stances are equally convincing and equally absurd.

I don't know about others, but for me "belief" isn't in things that are probably true. Belief is in the truth itself (edit: the true proposition). It's probably true that there's life on other planets, but that only results in that I believe (100%) that it's probably true that there's life on other planets.

Edit: Everything that exists has true statements that can be made about it. The simplest truth is identity, "it is..." The 'shape' of belief follows precisely the 'shape' of truth in the world as we each know it.

Edit: In other words, where the true proposition can be composed, that's where our beliefs lie.

 

[Falvlun]

Remember that we all start out without a belief in god. We can then either remain without a belief in the existence of god, or slowly (or even quickly) be convinced to cross the threshold to belief.

And do recall that I don't find that meaningful at all. We start out without a belief because we are incapable of belief-- it has no relation to what makes beliefs beliefs. It makes just as much sense as claiming that "not walking" or "lack of language" is the default state of humans.

Besides, regardless of where you start out, you are somewhere on that continuum. The fact that 50% is the "point of no opinion" doesn't mean that that is necessarily where everyone starts out. There is no default.

But we're not asking the question: "Do you believe gods are possible?" We're asking the question: "Do you hold the belief that a god exists?" Why would someone who believes in god answer the yes or no question with "I believe that gods are a "possibility"? They would answer the question "yes." Saying that gods are "possible" shows you that they don't yet hold the belief that god does in fact exist. Once they cross that threshold into believing that god exists, then they would no longer be referring to god as a "possibility".

By answering "I believe gods are a possibility" you are not answering the question "Do you believe that gods exist?" As noted before, the answer to that question is how probable you find the existence of gods to be.

Saying that gods are possible does not indicate which side of the continuum you fall. You could believe that gods are possible, and highly likely; you could also believe that gods are possible, and highly unlikely.

 

[idav]

I don't know about others, but for me "belief" isn't in things that are probably true. Belief is in the truth itself (edit: the true proposition). It's probably true that there's life on other planets, but that only results in that I believe (100%) that it's probably true that there's life on other planets.

Edit: Everything that exists has true statements that can be made about it. The simplest truth is identity, "it is..." The 'shape' of belief follows precisely the 'shape' of truth in the world as we each know it.

Edit: In other words, where the true proposition can be composed, that's where our beliefs lie.

I believe there are aliens out there but that doesn't mean I think it's 100% probable. Belief is yes or no but probability isn't 100 or 0. If you don't have any doubt then you might be 100% but of course you should have doubt unless you've met an alien.

Have you met an alien?

 

[Magic Man]

I've come across the concept of 'Atheism is the default position', but I question that... Sure, when we are born we have no knowledge/comprehension of any god (even a mere concept) but I also feel that to have a firm stance on a belief either way (theism/atheism) it requires analysis, in-depth discussion, and obviously a conclussion at some point... But we aren't born with any knowledge, let alone one as abstract as theology, to really have a default position as Atheism... I don't think you can have profound belief without having even the slightest of knowledge... What do you guys think?

I know I'm late here, but:

The main point of contention on this topic is whether or not someone who simply holds no belief one way or the other should be considered an atheist. In my opinion, anyone who does not hold the belief "God exists" is an atheist. An agnostic is someone who believes ultimate knowledge of God's existence is impossible. So, someone who does not know about God obviously cannot hold the belief "God exists", and is therefore, in my opinion, an atheist. That would include babies.

 

[Willamena]

I believe there are aliens out there but that doesn't mean I think it's 100% probable. Belief is yes or no but probability isn't 100 or 0. If you don't have any doubt then you might be 100% but of course you should have doubt unless you've met an alien.

Have you met an alien?

I don't think it's 100% probable, either. But that's not what I said.

 

[idav]

I don't think it's 100% probable, either. But that's not what I said.

I know you said you "believe (100%) that it's probably true". Nice little play on the "100%".

 

[Willamena]

I know you said you "believe (100%) that it's probably true". Nice little play on the "100%".

No. I said it's 100% true (belief) that I think it's probable.

 

[idav]

No. I said it's 100% true (belief) that I think it's probable.

That might be what you meant but I copy pasted. I don't think faith exists without doubt. Anyway it is related to the "spectrum of probability as it relates to belief". I might call BS on someone who claims to have 100% faith with no doubt. I suppose first hand account might convince someone 100% which would require an encounter of the fourth kind.

 

[Willamena]

That might be what you meant but I copy pasted.

I know, I get that, but on its own it was out of context. It's called "quote mining."

Original meaning can't survive out of context.

I don't think faith exists without doubt. Anyway it is related to the "spectrum of probability as it relates to belief". I might call BS on someone who claims to have 100% faith with no doubt. I suppose first hand account might convince someone 100% which would require an encounter of the fourth kind.

I would call BS on someone who claims belief without doubt. *nods* But belief is a pointer at the truth believed, just as the proposition about truth is a pointer at belief.

 

[idav]

I know, I get that, but on its own it was out of context. It's called "quote mining."

Original meaning can't survive out of context.


I would call BS on someone who claims belief without doubt. *nods* But belief is a pointer at the truth believed, just as the proposition about truth is a pointer at belief.

There was nothing wrong with the quote it is 100% true but you also brought probability into your statement of 100% belief.

Thing is when there is doubt that means there are reasons to answer no and reasons to answer yes. Saying yes you believe is saying it is more yes than no. I know it is irritating when people answer yes and no but sometimes it's true.

 

[Falvlun]

No, I have a hunch that there will be sausages in the grill when I get home. I'd say It's slightly more likely than not that there will be. But I don't believe there will be sausages. I'm so unsure about it I wouldn't call it a belief. You can think something is slightly more probable than not without it being a belief.

I disagree. You believe that the likelihood of sausages on the grill are more likely than not. You believe in the sausages!

But, realize that it's not like we can precisely pinpoint our "probability". It's highly unlikely that you know your probability of belief in sausages is at precisely 52.4%. That's why I tend to go more with words like "moderate", "slight", "high" rather than an exact number. If your belief is that close to 50%, then I agree, it's basically as if you didn't have the belief at all, and really, noone (except perhaps yourself) could really tell the difference.

There really are 2 scales. There's the probability you think something is and how sure you are about that probability.

I'm not sure I follow you. It's a gut feeling. You should know whether you strongly or weakly find something likely or not. And as mentioned above, it's not like you need a precise number.

I don't know about others, but for me "belief" isn't in things that are probably true. Belief is in the truth itself (edit: the true proposition). It's probably true that there's life on other planets, but that only results in that I believe (100%) that it's probably true that there's life on other planets.

You said later that this means "it's 100% true (belief) that I think it's probable."

Of course that's true, but that's not what the spectrum is measuring. Your statement basically amounts to "I believe that I have this belief." The spectrum is about how you get that belief in the first place.

EDIT: Actually, your statement amounts to 'I KNOW I have this belief." I don't think people always know when they have a belief. Oftentimes, beliefs are so in the background we hardly know that they are there.

 

[Willamena]

You said later that this means "it's 100% true (belief) that I think it's probable."

Of course that's true, but that's not what the spectrum is measuring. Your statement basically amounts to "I believe that I have this belief." The spectrum is about how you get that belief in the first place.

How do you get that belief in the first place?

 

[Falvlun]

How do you get that belief in the first place?

Whether you find something likely or not. Various things play into that: innate personality, environment, access to information, personal experience, etc.