Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

I get the same thing from Christians. And, I've already said this, we both would probably wish that they could not be so close-minded about their beliefs. Would you agree? Or are you okay with them being so sure that their false beliefs are true? I really hope not. But, then that's what religious people do. Once they believe, lots of them stop questioning and just go along with what their religion teaches, because they "know" it is the truth. I would hope all religious believers would entertain a little bit of doubt and uncertainty... even Baha'is.

It does not bother me if Christians are certain that what they believe is true. Why would that bother me?

Why would you hope that Baha'is would be uncertain of our beliefs? What other religion is there that is newer and better? Are we supposed to entertain the possibility that maybe one of the older religions is true and we have been duped? There is not a snowball's chance in hell that is the case from where I am standing. Moreover, it is logically impossible because there would be too much to have to explain away if the Baha'i Faith was a false religion.

What would you have to explain away, Tb?

For one thing.....

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel where the Baha’i World Centre is located.

To TB... And what was my point? Every religion has its "true believers". But, even if it's the Baha'is are right or any of the others, essentially, it makes all the others wrong. Yet, those "true believers" are so sure of their beliefs that it is almost impossible for them to see that they were wrong and some other religion was right.

The Baha'i Faith does put its followers into a position of having to accept all of it as true. One problem with that is that is a Baha'i does have some doubts or questions something about the Faith, what are the other Baha'is going to do? Agree and say, "Yes, I was wondering about that too?" Unfortunately, it becomes a bad thing to think freely and to question and to doubt.

And one thing that I doubt is that you or other Baha'is would see it as something admirable for a person in some religious cult to blindly believe everything they are told? You say it doesn't bother you that Christians are certain about their beliefs? So it's okay with you and Baha'is that they believe in Satan and the Jesus is God? Doesn't bother you? It's okay with you that they are certain about those things? I would hope not.

And since Baha'is do try and "teach" Christians the truth... that those things are not true, then, at some level, it does bother some Baha'is. Then same thing with Christians. They "witness" to Baha'is and try and tell them the error of their ways. Both so sure that what they believe is the truth. Why not keep examining and keep learning? Why think that your truth is "The Truth"? It's only because your religion and most all of the others, tell you that what you must do to be a "true believer".

Oh, and there are ways to explain away Haifa. It is not Mt. Zion. It is not Jerusalem. There are prophecies that say out of Zion will come the law. But I'm sure you've got your quotes too. So it's a wash. Nothing can be proven. Yet, people "know" for sure?

 

[CG Didymus]

You keep pestering her about that.

We are in a debate forum where TB makes statements that beg to be questioned. So, do you really see it as "pestering"?

Nope. He has to demonstrate it with his fruits. You have to determine, for instance, if this person is prone to lie. Does he have good character? Does he bring out the best in others that he crosses? Do his writings make sense? Does his writings explain mysteries that seem like could not come from an ordinary human? Etc.

Yes, that is exactly what we should do. Who was this person? He is Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad. What are the "proofs" to his claims? What prophecies did he fulfill? We look at his claims with great skepticism. Yet, he might have more followers than Baha'u'llah. How can that be? Why are they so sure? It should be easy to see and find things that show that his claims aren't true?

It is the same thing with Baha'u'llah. Did he fulfill the NT prophecies? Especially the ones in Revelation? But then did he fulfill the prophecies in the Quran? And the Messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Bible? What ever was predicted in Zoroastrianism. The Maitreya prophecies in Buddhism? And the Kalki prophecies in Hinduism? The claim is that he fulfilled all the prophecies. We can look at them and see for ourselves. But, there's problems. How true are those prophecies? Who wrote them and when? Have they been translated correctly? Like the problem created with "Almah" being translated as "virgin" in the Septuagint. Jews say it is wrong. Christians say it is right and run with it. Baha'is took the KJV where it say "He" shall come to you from Assyria. But other translations have "They" will come to you. So by the time we're done examining the prophecies, like TB says, anyone can make them say anything they want.

So what can Baha'is expect but a lot of doubt and a lot of questions. But Baha'is have put themselves here, and I'd imagine they are here to try and answer those questions. Is it "pestering"? Maybe to some of the Baha'is. But on the flip side of that coin are the Baha'is continually making "claims" and statements that their religion and their prophet is The Truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Your mistake is that the logic only works if it leads to a conclusion one agrees with. If one doesn't agree with the conclusion, then the logic is obviously flawed.

That's what I was testing out when I asked the Baha'is to take an "unbiased" look at Isaiah chapter 7. They'll all agreed that the one verse, 7:14, was indeed a prophecy about he virgin birth of Jesus. I had hoped that they'd see that the context of the chapter does not support that. But no. Their religion agrees with Christians that Jesus was born of a virgin. Conclusion? Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy about Jesus. No matter what the context says.

1. The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No it's not. Something is true if it accurately describes the world that actually exists (as opposed to our perception of it). Unless you are claiming that there is no real world at all, or that we each have our own version of the real world, then truth is not relative.

Yes the world is ultimately the illusion for us. It is relative to our given state of being and our conception of it. If we were a rock, or a bird or a tree, vast is the difference. The world is a construct. It has a purpose and when that purpose is obtained, death and decomposition is the lot of the flesh and this reality changes for us into another.

There are two quotes that I share.

Spoiler: World is an Illusion

Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot "fatten nor appease his hunger." (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 328-329)
"Know ye that the world is even as a mirage rising over the sands, that the thirsty mistaketh for water. The wine of this world is but a vapour in the desert, its pity and compassion but toil and trouble, the repose it proffereth only weariness and sorrow." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 186

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.

So is Isaiah 7:14, to you, an event that happens often?

2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.

Isaiah 7:14 was written before the birth of Jesus.

3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy

Isaiah 7:14 is thus applicable to Jesus. It is a stand alone prophecy, talking about a promise to be fulfilled and not a timing of that promise.

4. The fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.

Isaiah 7:14 can not happen in any other way, but to be a miraculous event.

5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

All Prophecy is open to interpretation, that is free will. One has to answer for their choices, that is life.

For all your criteria noted above, except your last point, because even specific prophecy will be seen by others not to be specific. It can be shown Baha'u'llah fulfilled Prophecy, unless you think Baha'u'llah orchestrated his banishment to Akka to fulfill Micah 7:12.

Since you brought upMirzā Ghulām Ahmad, could he be seen to fulfil that prophecy? Are there any other claimant that can?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You make a good point. "We fail". Not that I see Abdul Baha' as perfect. I disagree with some of the things he's written. But, let's say he was perfect... are any other Baha'is perfect? Will there ever be perfect Baha'is? If not, then the things they do and say are not going to be perfect, but something less than perfect. How will less than perfect people bring peace and harmony to the world?

That is how God's plan is always unfolded. God knows all all our hearts desires our thoughts and our actions before we do.

Life is constructed to give each one of us a choice at every given moment. The choice is there and God knows what choices to give us.

There is a prayer from the Bab that gives me those thoughts.

Spoiler: Prayer of Bab

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’í Prayers: A Selection of Prayers Revealed by Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 150-151

This is how it finishes,

"... Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance."

I see our inability to embrace such a simple Message from Baha'u'llah, has prolonged humanities suffering. That has happened in every age, the rebellion of children against the authority of the parent. Baha'u'llah offered humanity is emerging from that adolescent state of being.

Let's hope we mature as a whole, faster than we have been able to do to date.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You did not understand the question.

I was not asking if we could know whether something is incorrect or not. I was asking if a person can ever say, "I know fact X is true," if fact X is not actually true.

Of course people can say that, people say that all the time.

"I know the election was stolen!"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions"? So the Baha'i Faith does not "abrogate" any of the other religions just some of the things in the other religions? Okay. And what a the "spiritual" teachings and meaning that are not "abrogated"? As if each religion taught the same spiritual things? But, I guess you think they do. So what are you including as "spiritual" teachings?

I see the Golden rule is one that you will find in each faith. You will also find teachings on Love and service to each other. Teachings on helping the poor and needy. As I have offered, look at the life of Abdu'lbaha and we can see what all Faiths have taught. You will note that Abdu'lbaha was embraced by all people from all Faiths as they all saw their Faith in the way he lived his life.

You offerd that you do not see some truth in some of his writings, that is the part that changes, the thoughts we have on what things mean, they are relative to us.

Deeds are tangible evidence.

So the question you asked, to me, is the one we have to immerse ourselves in the ocean of Gods Words to determine for our own selves CG. Why, because Truth is relative to the effort we take to search for those very answers.

I see no progress is won, if we ask for everything on a platter, in that way I guess my nature and nurture made me very lucky, I an fiercely independent, to which has its own issues, but personally I had to find all these things for my own self.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, you told me the reason why Baha'is believe it was Ishmael and not Isaac taken to be sacrificed. This, and I've told you before, is what I don't understand. We are talking about Genesis. Do Baha'is even believe that it is historically accurate? Do Baha'is know who even wrote it? Next, to say that it was Ishmael, are you then saying that story is accurate? Then, if in the actual story it was Ishmael, was this "true" story ever written down in the Hebrew Scriptures? If so, all those copies of the Bible are gone? Not even a fragment to verify the "truth" of the Baha'i claim?

Then, since there was no Muhammad yet and no Quran yet and no Baha'i Faith yet, why would the scribes change the story? What was there motive? Then, since the Bible was hand written, how many Scribes were involved in this plot? If it wasn't all of them, then there would have been some Scribes holding true to the text and would have copied the story that would have had Ishmael. Then, even if all the Scribes wrote a new Bible that all of a sudden had Isaac in the story, what did they do with all the older copies of the Bible? They collected them all and destroyed them? And all the religious leaders were okay with that? And all the people that knew the older story and probably had it memorized just forgot about it?

Why would the scribes change the story? What makes you think they ever knew the story? How would they know it? Who were they anyway? We don't even know.

I never said the the Scribes were involved in any plot. Do you really believe that the Bible is historically accurate? I guess you cannot imagine that the Scribes made a mistake, but you sure can imagine that the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings are mistaken.

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance....

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words

(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, and there are ways to explain away Haifa. It is not Mt. Zion. It is not Jerusalem. There are prophecies that say out of Zion will come the law. But I'm sure you've got your quotes too. So it's a wash. Nothing can be proven. Yet, people "know" for sure?

That is the key about the Spirit behind the word CG. That is why God gives Faith and choice.

We can consider that the Universal House of Justice, who will be the giver of Law for Baha'i is on Zion. So is the Arc of the Covernant.

New Jerusalem - Wikipedia.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You make a good point. "We fail". Not that I see Abdul Baha' as perfect. I disagree with some of the things he's written. But, let's say he was perfect... are any other Baha'is perfect? Will there ever be perfect Baha'is? If not, then the things they do and say are not going to be perfect, but something less than perfect. How will less than perfect people bring peace and harmony to the world?

Only God is perfect, and as a Manifestation of God Baha'u'llah was the perfect man. That is why He was able to bring peace and harmony to the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can consider that the Universal House of Justice, who will be the giver of Law for Baha'i is on Zion. So is the Arc of the Covernant.

Isaiah 2:2-4 King James Version

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:1-3 King James Version

4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[samtonga43]

Just about, if you mean do I believe that Baha'u'llah is the latest Prophet. I'm not sure whether my opinion of what the Writings mean is right. Does that bother you? You keep pestering her about that.

How does one 'just about know'?
***
I ask Tb about this 'knowing vs believing' stuff because I think it is irrational, and I am astounded by the various 'explanations' she comes up with to explain how she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God spoke directly to MrB. When I ask how she knows, she says that MrB said so. It is irrational.

 

[samtonga43]

Only God is perfect, and as a Manifestation of God Baha'u'llah was the perfect man. That is why He was able to bring peace and harmony to the world.

When did he bring peace and harmony to the world?

 

[Trailblazer]

"The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions"? So the Baha'i Faith does not "abrogate" any of the other religions just some of the things in the other religions?

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates the Dispensations of all the religions that preceded it.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

By an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed.

Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears. Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes.

Baha'is believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Manifestation of God and I believe that Manifestation is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger (Manifestation of God) for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

 

[Trailblazer]

And so they say. Children getting blown up in Afghanistan? Where was God for them? I suppose now that they are dead God has some special reward for them?

Actually, that is true. God has a special reward for them.

THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240

 

[samtonga43]

I just said the same.

OK. So it is perfectly possible that the person who KNOWS that the atheist position is true is the one who really does have the truth.

 

[samtonga43]

For one thing.....

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel where the Baha’i World Centre is located.

Sorry, but I don't understand. Why is this 'difficult to explain away'?

 

[Trailblazer]

And since Baha'is do try and "teach" Christians the truth... that those things are not true, then, at some level, it does bother some Baha'is. Then same thing with Christians. They "witness" to Baha'is and try and tell them the error of their ways. Both so sure that what they believe is the truth. Why not keep examining and keep learning? Why think that your truth is "The Truth"? It's only because your religion and most all of the others, tell you that what you must do to be a "true believer".

I cannot speak for other Baha'is, I can only speak for myself. I am the last person to do what other people tell me to do, I make my own choices.

I believe that the Bahai Faith is true because of the EVIDENCE so until and unless someone can refute that evidence I will continue being a Baha'i. I do not have to examine or learn about the older religions because I know the Baha'i Faith is true and that means the previous religious dispensations have been abrogated and God wants everyone to follow Baha'u'llah.

Oh, and there are ways to explain away Haifa. It is not Mt. Zion. It is not Jerusalem. There are prophecies that say out of Zion will come the law. But I'm sure you've got your quotes too. So it's a wash. Nothing can be proven. Yet, people "know" for sure?

I see we have covered this before. Looking through my folders that contain hundreds of Word documents, I quickly located this post:

What is the reference where Isaiah calls Mt. Carmel the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.”? I truly hope that Baha'is are not taking references to Mt. Zion, Jerusalem, and transferring them to Mt. Carmel. But, I wouldn't put it passed them.

We do not have to transfer anything, because there is no such "place" as Mt. Zion.

Mount Zion’s Meaning

The word “mount” is simply a shortened meaning of mountain and mountains often refer to governments or nations but often is referred to in Scripture as “the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel” (Isaiah 30:29b). In the case of Mount Zion it is representative of the Kingdom of God where we read in Hebrews 12:22 that “you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering.” That is where it is said “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all” (Heb 12:23) will be at and it looks ahead to the New Jerusalem that will descend out of heaven (Rev 21:10-26).

What Is Zion and The Biblical Meaning? What Is Mount Zion In The Bible?

The government of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is located on Mt. Carmel.

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

 

[samtonga43]

"... Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance."

This is not 'simple'. The language used is archaic. People do not speak like this any more.

It is strange that a religion which purports to be 'modern'
chooses 17th century convoluted prose.

One would almost think that Bahais were actively trying to put people off reading their messages.