Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[night912]

I believe that the Bahai Faith is true because of the EVIDENCE so until and unless someone can refute that evidence I will continue being a Baha'i. I do not have to examine or learn about the older religions because I know the Baha'i Faith is true and that means the previous religious dispensations have been abrogated and God wants everyone to follow Baha'u'llah.

You're still a Baha'i, even after your so called "evidence" were refuted. So clearly, that statement above is not true.

BTW,
Deniers will have to do their own research and find the refuted information that I'm talking. Lucky for you, all of them can be found on RF.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Isaiah 2:2-4 King James Version

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:1-3 King James Version

4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Passeges in the Book of Revelation talk of the new 'Abode of Peace' (Jerusalem), Revelation 3:12 and Revelation 21:2.

The writings tell us the New Jerusalem is the Word of God. I personally see the outward reflection of that word, becomes the central point of the Faith, a true abide of peace for our souls.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is not 'simple'. The language used is archaic. People do not speak like this any more.

It is strange that a religion which purports to be 'modern'
chooses 17th century convoluted prose.

One would almost think that Bahais were actively trying to put people off reading their messages.

I would offer, no one that does not want to read the writings should.

If they do choose to, then the best form of English was chosen, that better portrays the beauty of the Arabic an Persian languages, according to Shoghi Effendi, who was well educated to make such a decision.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You're still a Baha'i, even after your so called "evidence" were refuted. So clearly, that statement above is not true.

People still say the earth is flat. Are you offering, as they put forward their evidence for a refutation of a round world, that on that basis it is correct?

If not, people can refute all they want, they can provide their chosen evidence, but if it does not stand up, then the choice of being a Baha'i remains valid.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is not 'simple'. The language used is archaic. People do not speak like this any more.

It is strange that a religion which purports to be 'modern'
chooses 17th century convoluted prose.

One would almost think that Bahais were actively trying to put people off reading their messages.

Personally I do see that it is as simple as the choices we make in virtue and morality and the lack of good choices thereof.

Isaiah 45:7 says it very simply, with a universal infinite meaning. God has offered,

"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

That to me reflects exactly what the prayer of the Bab offers.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I ask Tb about this 'knowing vs believing' stuff because I think it is irrational, and I am astounded by the various 'explanations' she comes up with to explain how she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God spoke directly to MrB. When I ask how she knows, she says that MrB said so. It is irrational.

No, that is not what I said. Never ever did I say that I know that God spoke directly to Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah 'said so.' In fact, on numerous occasions I said that it would be circular reasoning to believe that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be 'because He said so.' Then I went on to explain all the evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, in which case God spoke to Him, since that is part of His claim.

However, the reason I know is not just because of the evidence, it is because of how I interpret the evidence, what I believe it means, and I can see it because I was guided by God to be able to see it.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[Trailblazer]

When did he bring peace and harmony to the world?

He did not do that Himself and no scriptures say that the Messiah will do that Himself. In His Writings Baha'u'llah revealed what will be necessary in order for peace and harmony to be established on earth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates the Dispensations of all the religions that preceded it.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

By an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed.

Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears. Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes.

Baha'is believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Manifestation of God and I believe that Manifestation is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger (Manifestation of God) for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

I see these discussions show clearly the twofold station of the Messages given by God's chosen Messengers, which is most likely a good thing to point out.

On the One hand the Dispensation is Abrogated on and the Other it is Fulfilled and vindicated.

Jesus said it in a less direct way by offering, that if you had listened to Moses you would listen to me, as Moses wrote about Jesus Christ, and then on the other hand said all must give up the past ways and turn unto Him.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. So it is perfectly possible that the person who KNOWS that the atheist position is true is the one who really does have the truth.

It is possible for an atheist to believe that, yes. Only God knows what is possible, so there is your answer.

Possible
able to be done; within the power or capacity of someone or something.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=possible+means

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, but I don't understand. Why is this 'difficult to explain away'?

Because then you would have to explain how the Baha'i World Center came to be established atop Mt. Carmel in fulfillment of all the Bible prophecies that refer to that establishment.

Got any ideas?

 

[Trailblazer]

You're still a Baha'i, even after your so called "evidence" were refuted. So clearly, that statement above is not true.

Saying that you have refuted the evidence is not the same as doing what you say you have done, refuting the evidence. I see no demonstration that any of the evidence I have presented has been refuted and thus you are making a bald assertion.

What is "bald assertion?" Well the name says it all, doesn't it? It's stating something without backing it up. Now sometimes this is alright - if it's painfully obvious. Like the definition of a common word or nine by seven being sixty three. You shouldn't waste everyone's time asking your opponent in a debate to prove nine by seven is sixty three, accusing him of bald assertion. It's true he did assert something baldly, but it's logical to do that sometimes when it's very common knowledge and not even a matter of any debate whatsoever.

You don't need to cover and cite sources behind every thing you say, just behind the key points, and their key ingredients. The topics being argued over. They're the focus of the day anyway.

Bald assertion is when you state something without backing it up. For example, merely stating your position statement would be this type of fallacious.

Logical Fallacy Lesson 4: Bald Assertion | Rational Response Squad

BTW,
Deniers will have to do their own research and find the refuted information that I'm talking. Lucky for you, all of them can be found on RF.

What information? You have presented no information. All you is a bald assertion.
You have a 'personal opinion' about the evidence and what it represents, nothing more.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates the Dispensations of all the religions that preceded it.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

By an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed.

Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears. Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes.

Baha'is believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Manifestation of God and I believe that Manifestation is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger (Manifestation of God) for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

"The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions"? So the Baha'i Faith does not "abrogate" any of the other religions just some of the things in the other religions? Okay. And what a the "spiritual" teachings and meaning that are not "abrogated"? As if each religion taught the same spiritual things? But, I guess you think they do. So what are you including as "spiritual" teachings?

So it does "abrogate" some things? Like their dispensation. And some of their laws. And some of the things they teach as true but aren't.

But I don't agree with the Baha'i Faith putting each into a "dispensation". When did the Hindu dispensation begin and end for instance?

 

[CG Didymus]

So is Isaiah 7:14, to you, an event that happens often?



Isaiah 7:14 was written before the birth of Jesus.



Isaiah 7:14 is thus applicable to Jesus. It is a stand alone prophecy, talking about a promise to be fulfilled and not a timing of that promise.



Isaiah 7:14 can not happen in any other way, but to be a miraculous event.



All Prophecy is open to interpretation, that is free will. One has to answer for their choices, that is life.

For all your criteria noted above, except your last point, because even specific prophecy will be seen by others not to be specific. It can be shown Baha'u'llah fulfilled Prophecy, unless you think Baha'u'llah orchestrated his banishment to Akka to fulfill Micah 7:12.

Since you brought upMirzā Ghulām Ahmad, could he be seen to fulfil that prophecy? Are there any other claimant that can?

Regards Tony

These five points were for Tiberius. He has them at the end of all his posts.
1. The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

But let's see how they work.
The first... already a problem. Did a "young maiden" give birth to a child or did a "virgin"? The second, yes, it was written before the birth of Jesus. The third, Nope, wrong. Two gospel writers are the only ones that mention the birth of Jesus and only one, Matthew, quote Isaiah. Your "verification" is Baha'u'llah I suppose? But, there's another problem... It didn't take place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy. It doesn't fit the context of Isaiah chapter 7. When Jesus got old enough to know right from wrong, and after he ate his curds and honey, did the two kings that were planning to attack Judah die? No. But, if you are okay with pulling verse 14 out of context and calling it a prophecy, then go ahead. But why isn't that cherry-picking? Okay, next one... No, but maybe Matthew took an oral tradition about Jesus being born of a virgin and wrote it down. He did take other verses out of context, so it is very possible that he was just looking for verses to add to his story and say they were fulfilled prophecies. He wasn't there. He wasn't an eyewitness. Where did he get his information? No one else tells the same story. Something easily made up. Then the last one, in context it is specific... a young woman will give birth to a son and when he gets older the two kings will be dead. The tough part... the word "Almah". That's a problem. Does it mean "virgin" or does it mean "young maiden"? Was it specific that it was a woman in Isaiah's time or a woman several hundred years later? If this was a prophecy way later, what happened to the King of Judah and the two kings wanting to attack him? Isaiah said the sign was for him?

Since Baha'is make so many things in the Bible "allegorical" and not literal, why this one? Why make something so easily faked... something that literally happened? And how literal do you believe it? Since the two accounts contradict themselves? The only reason seems to be is because Baha'u'llah said so. Fine, if it doesn't cause you any of that nasty cognitive dissonance go for it.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes the world is ultimately the illusion for us. It is relative to our given state of being and our conception of it. If we were a rock, or a bird or a tree, vast is the difference. The world is a construct. It has a purpose and when that purpose is obtained, death and decomposition is the lot of the flesh and this reality changes for us into another.

There are two quotes that I share.

Spoiler: World is an Illusion

Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot "fatten nor appease his hunger." (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 328-329)
"Know ye that the world is even as a mirage rising over the sands, that the thirsty mistaketh for water. The wine of this world is but a vapour in the desert, its pity and compassion but toil and trouble, the repose it proffereth only weariness and sorrow." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 186

Regards Tony

Again, I will point out that I am talking about the world that actually exists, not our perceptions of the world.

 

[Tiberius]

Of course people can say that, people say that all the time.

"I know the election was stolen!"

*sigh*

But is such a person justified in claiming that they KNOW it?

How could they KNOW the election was stolen if the election was actually completely fair?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So it does "abrogate" some things? Like their dispensation. And some of their laws. And some of the things they teach as true but aren't.

But I don't agree with the Baha'i Faith putting each into a "dispensation". When did the Hindu dispensation begin and end for instance?

I personally see it as a progression. The world has seasons, man has a time on earth, it is all reflected from the word of God which also has a set season.

Anyway, we can consider that man has inherintantly abrogated many of Gods teachings from their lives for their own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, I will point out that I am talking about the world that actually exists, not our perceptions of the world.

I talk of that same world, it is only a matter of perception, our relative understanding.

Ask what a blind or a death man from birth perceives the world like, it would radically different from those with sight or hearing.

So if we are not willing to embrace spiritual visions, how can we perceive what we do not look for?

Baha'u'llah has offered this for us to consider.

"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.
Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth."

That to me offers that it is our choice, 100% so.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

*sigh*

But is such a person justified in claiming that they KNOW it?

How could they KNOW the election was stolen if the election was actually completely fair?

They have gathered their evidence to suit that agenda, they want their stance to be the truth, they want to be justified in that stance.

With God, the evidence is given and asks us to look and make a choice, nothing needs to be fabricated, just as in the quote I will post again, as it answers this as well.

"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.
Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since Baha'is make so many things in the Bible "allegorical" and not literal, why this one? Why make something so easily faked... something that literally happened? And how literal do you believe it? Since the two accounts contradict themselves? The only reason seems to be is because Baha'u'llah said so. Fine, if it doesn't cause you any of that nasty cognitive dissonance go for it.

With this CG we must Balance Science and Faith. Faith tells me that God created and can do as God wills. Baha'u'llah offerd he could utter one word and make all beleivers, but that would alter this reality, its purpose.

Scientifically could it be possible for a virgin to give birth, most likely not, but here is the thing, we have no way of knowing what happened now either way.

So what is the spiritual ramifications of such a story? It could be a simple reality that as a Messenger is born from a womb, in our reality they are born of the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is given and not conceived.

Personally I see no need to dwell on it, there is much more practical things to pursue.

We could also ask what is the chance of 300 musket balls missing two targets by trained troops?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So it does "abrogate" some things? Like their dispensation. And some of their laws. And some of the things they teach as true but aren't.

But I don't agree with the Baha'i Faith putting each into a "dispensation". When did the Hindu dispensation begin and end for instance?

Actually, it was not the Baha'i Faith who wrote that, it was me, and later I realized that it was not exactly correct because of what Shoghi Effendi wrote. “In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, " God Passes By, p. 100

I believe this part of what I said -- "Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears."

is correct because except for the spiritual teachings what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears.

However, this part of what I said -- "Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes."

is not necessarily correct, because Shoghi Effendi only said that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it. He did not say that all the previous dispensations abrogated all the dispensations that preceded them and as such the Hindu dispensation was not necessarily abrogated by the dispensations that came later.