Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Mock Turtle]

It would certainly appear that way if all you looked at were the older religions that are now in their winter season.
You came to a logical conclusion given what you were looking at. I came to another conclusion since I was looking at a religion that is in its spring season.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.

‘Abdu’l-Baha writes: ‘God leaves not His children comfortless, but, when the darkness of winter overshadows them, then again He sends His Messengers, the Prophets, with a renewal of the blessed spring. The Sun of Truth appears again on the horizon of the world shining into the eyes of those who sleep, awaking them to behold the glory of a new dawn. Then again will the tree of humanity blossom and bring forth the fruit of righteousness for the healing of the nations.’ Paris Talks, p. 32.’

Some conclusions can be drawn from this fundamental belief. First, all religions are divine in essence and consequently there are no religions which contradict or exclude each other, but only one indivisible divine religion which is renewed periodically and according to the requirements of the age, in cycles of about a thousand years: ‘Our command was but one word.’ Qur’an 54:51. It is therefore hardly surprising if many of Baha’u’llah’s teachings are to be found in former religions either expressly or in an embryonic form. As ‘Abdu’l-Baha says, the Baha’i Faith is ‘not a new path to immortality.’ quoted from: Principles of the Baha’i Faith. On account of this transcendent oneness of all religions, Baha’u’llah exhorted His people to associate with followers of all religions in a spirit of loving-kindness and to make of religion a cause of harmony and peace, not of discord and strife, of hate and division.

The second conclusion is that we cannot perceive what the essence of religion is and what it has the power to achieve if we examine the traditional great religions in their present form. They have achieved much but have reached the end of their road; they were the foundation of great cultures and for thousands of years they were the guiding-star of millions of people in their everyday life and activities. But during the course of history they have also accumulated large amounts of historical ballast. They have moved a long way from their origin and are burdened with their followers’ misdeeds and cravings for power. They are no pleasant sight today, least of all to young people, who no longer see in these religions the ‘salt of the earth’ as Jesus called his disciples, Matthew 5:13 but rather the ‘opium of the people’ (Karl Marx). And one is easily inclined to pass judgment on religion as a whole, and to see in it an anachronism of past times, long since overcome, like the belief in demons in former times. But a withered plant does not give us the faintest idea of its blossoming time. In reality, religions are the ‘light of the world’ and, according to Baha’u’llah’s teachings, the foundation of human culture. It is important to understand that they are as necessary for mankind as sunlight for the plant. Without divine revelation, there would be neither progress nor culture: ‘Were this revelation to be withdrawn, all would perish.’ Taken from (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, XCIII).

(Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, pp. 24-26)

I think the sheer fact of there being so many religious beliefs, and not being so harmonious, should incline one to to take a step further and try to understand why they might have come into existence, and how, even if one has the belief - as you seem to have - that they are just messages coming to us at the right time for our development. I can understand why many would want some kind of faith and might not want to delve further though - given that I don't feel the need to do so for any particular religion, and purely from time constraints. I can't claim to be anything other than a messy thinker too, but one must work with what one has or hasn't.

 

[samtonga43]

Before I proceed, I would like to clarify something very important. When I said "There are a lot of "Additional Truths" in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism and other religions." I was thinking of teachings in those religions, not spiritual truths.

So there are no additional spiritual truths'. OK.

The Main Baha’i Teachings
The Baha’i teachings focus on the soul’s relationship with the eternal, unknowable essence of God, and recommend daily prayer and meditation to everyone. Baha’is believe that the human spirit lives eternally, and so endeavor to illumine their souls with spiritual attributes — kindness, generosity, integrity, truthfulness, humility, and selfless service to others.

AMEN!!

 

[Bree]

I am sneaking onto the forum. I’m up late at the office and my fiancé is at home asleep lol so she won’t get mad at me. I have considered it and have heard some arguments for creationism. If you’d like to give me your best insights I’d be happy to discuss your ideas and see if they are convincing to me.

im not coming from the background of someone who didnt believe in God and then later learned to believe through education.... ever since i was young i always believed in a creator so i never really needed to do the type of search that you are endeavoring to do to find him.

However, in saying that, I have learned the arguments of athiests and those who believe in evolution and I had to study a lot in order to counter the arguments. My husband is not a believer in a creator but rather believes in evolution.... dinner time at our house was for some time 'excitable' if i may call it that

The thing that really clinches creation for me is the DNA , Reproduction and Instinct. The information embeded in the DNA implies intelligence. I cant fathom how all that information got there without someome putting it in there. Could it have evolved slowly and gradually over eons of time? Mathematics would say No. The chances of DNA forming without direction are virtually nil. Without DNA there is no reproduction and without reproduction there is no DNA. Instinct is another form of information entirely and its not learned thru experience....it is built into that very same DNA. To explain why instinct is a powerful proof of God, I saw a documentary on the australian kangaroo. When a baby kangaroo is born, it is born outside the pouch and it has to climb its way up to mothers stomach and climb down into the pouch and attach itself to the mother teat. How does a tiny foetus to size of the tip of my little finger, know where to go? That information is pre-written into the creature. My mind boggles at this stage, but logic tells me that, like a computer chip, every creature is programmed by its creator.

This knowledge alone is enough for me. I know lots of other arguments that evolutionists uses but this in itself is all I need to know im on the right track. Life if gift and its given by our creator for a purpose. Every creature has a place in the environment and no one has to teach it what its job is. Humans are slightly different in that regard. We are born and can choose to be anything we desire. Animals have no such free will. They are born to do 1 job and live 1 life and thats all they do....over and over and over again.

So you are not programmed to believe in evolution or in creation.... you get to choose because for some reason, in all the animal kingdom (of which evolutionist's say we are part of) we somehow dont have the instinct to know what our place is? If you ponder that long enough you might begin to consider that your life is part of a bigger picture, one that you havnt yet found but one that will always be a burning question in the back of your mind. What are we here for? What is our purpose and why are we not built with the same inbuilt systems that every other animal on the planet have built into its DNA?

And this is why I believe.

 

[an anarchist]

Hello, I'm new to online forums. I chose this one specifically because I think it is very thought provoking. I love understanding and questioning different religious beliefs. I hope to have a debate that is robust, intriguing, and intellectually honest. I'm happy to debate anyone from any religious discipline and educational background. I currently do not have anyone to debate. I'll edit my title post, if possible, once the affirmative position has been occupied. Thanks in advance to anyone who will agree to debate. I'm ready to be convinced. Are you?

I believe that true satisfaction with life can only be found through spiritual practice. I believe an atheist cannot find true inner peace because true inner peace comes from closeness to God and spiritual practice.
How can an atheist find purpose and peace without God?

 

[Mock Turtle]

I believe that true satisfaction with life can only be found through spiritual practice. I believe an atheist cannot find true inner peace because true inner peace comes from closeness to God and spiritual practice.
How can an atheist find purpose and peace without God?

How can a believer, in whatever path they have, be satisfied or content when they know so many others don't share such but have something other? Perhaps you don't recognise the freedom that many atheists possibly feel, and probably never will, but purpose and peace are not the prerogative of any particular belief system or lack of such.

 

[samtonga43]

My husband is not a believer in a creator but rather believes in evolution.... dinner time at our house was for some time 'excitable' if i may call it that

Many Christians have no difficulty in believing in both the Creator and the process of evolution.

 

[Bree]

Many Christians have no difficulty in believing in both the Creator and the process of evolution.

yes that might be true. Im not one of them.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can a believer, in whatever path they have, be satisfied or content when they know so many others don't share such but have something other?

I am not satisfied and content as a believer who believes that only a handful of believers have recognized the latest message from God, but I also know it is not my responsibility to convince anyone of what I believe, nor do I want to do that. I wish more people would embrace the Baha'i Faith, but only if they chose to do so of their own free will.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I am not satisfied and content as a believer who believes that only a handful of believers have recognized the latest message from God, but I also know it is not my responsibility to convince anyone of what I believe, nor do I want to do that. I wish more people would embrace the Baha'i Faith, but only if they chose to do so of their own free will.

Well I'm not being judgmental towards others, given that I don't have a firm conviction that my views are right, but obviously some have to be wrong in their beliefs even if their behaviour might be just the same as any others. Not that it bothers me greatly.

 

[Jim46]

I don't know if you would call this a religion, but I'm promoting following a spiritual teacher as part of living the best life we can. Would you like to debate about that?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know if you would call this a religion, but I'm promoting following a spiritual teacher as part of living the best life we can. Would you like to debate about that?

Do you have a particular spiritual teacher in mind?

 

[Jim46]

Do you have a particular spiritual teacher in mind?

Not for discussion purposes. There might be some discussion about how to choose one, but I won't be arguing that any specific one is the only one for people to follow, to live the best life they can.

 

[samtonga43]

The information embeded in the DNA implies intelligence. I cant fathom how all that information got there without someome putting it in there. Could it have evolved slowly and gradually over eons of time? Mathematics would say No. The chances of DNA forming without direction are virtually nil.

But there was / is direction. And there was / is a director.
As you say yourself, every creature is programmed by its creator, via evolution.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not for discussion purposes. There might be some discussion about how to choose one, but I won't be arguing that any specific one is the only one for people to follow, to live the best life they can.

What do you mean by a spiritual teacher?

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you have an opinion.

No, I have a belief, and I have solid reasons for holding that belief.

Only if you ignore the passage where Jesus says that he and his father are one.

I do not ignore that verse, I just interpret it differently than you do
Imagine that, basing and entire belief about who Jesus is upon ONE verse. If that is not cherry-picking I have never seen cherry-picking.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same.

The fact that the verses say “I and my Father" means that there are TWO entities, Jesus and the Father. The verse does not say "I and my Father became one."

Uh, hello? I'm an atheist. I'm not expecting to find God with science.

I sure hope not, because you never will.

So then your belief that the resurrection story is false is no indication on whether it really is false then, is it?

No it isn't, but that does not mean that the resurrection story is true.

And the fact that you believe it is false does not prove it is false.

That's right, beliefs do not determine what is true or false. People are free to BELIEVE anything they want to believe, but there is ZERO evidence for the bodily resurrection, ZERO, so it is simply a faith-based belief.

Because it lets you say, "God has done this before with Jesus, so he's done it again with Mr B.

You're darn tootin' and God did it before Jesus and will do it again after Baha'u'llah.
I can believe and say anything I want to believe and say, and there is nothing you can do about it.
And you can believe and say whatever you want to believe and say. But to say that Jesus is God and the only way would mean that Christianity is the only true religion and ALL the other religions are false. Sorry, I am not going to absurd and completely illogical place.

You wanted me to see things that were utterly irrelevant? Why do you wish to waste my time?

I posted what was on the website as is because I do not like editing other people's websites.

And they still contradict John 10:30.

Ah, but you claim that is false. And why do you claim that passage is false? Because that's the only way you can cling to the conclusion you've just laid out here.

I do not claim the verse is false. I just claim YOUR interpretation is false (see above).
Who do you think you are that you have the one and only correct interpretation of the verse? Who gave you any authority to interpret the Bible correctly? The verse does not say "I and my Father became one." It is utterly absurd to believe that the ineffable God became a man. NOTHING could be more absurd.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

And as a member of the Baha'i faith, you have an interest in showing the Baha'i faith to be correct.

I just respond to posts with what I believe. I could not care less if anyone agrees with me.

John 10:33 clearly states that Jesus's claim in John 10:30 was saying he WAS God.

Now, you'll claim that passage is false so you can ignore it in order to avoid having your beliefs called into doubt.

You just keep digging your grave deeper and deeper. Logically speaking, just because the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming to be God that does not mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. If you read the verses in context you can clearly see that Jesus was NOT claiming to be God. In John 30:36, Jesus said that He claimed to be the Son of God, NOT God. A Son is not His Father, they are separate from each other.

John 10 KJV

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father, even though the Father is in the Son.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Muslims don't have a bias against Christianity, that's hilarious.

Muslims know the Christian doctrines are false, just like Baha'is do, but they have no bias against Jesus, the REAL Jesus who was a Messenger of God.

I'm just showing how you are cherry picking Christianity to support your beliefs. I'm using Christianity because you were bring up how the Bible supports Baha'i faith so much. I'm just pointing out that you can only do this by ignoring a lot of what the Bible actually says - hence the cherry picking.

No, I just respond to posted that are posted to me and explain my interpretation of certain verses. I do not cherry-pick the Bible to support my Baha'i beliefs. I don't need the Bible for anything because Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 tablets. Moreover, the Bible is like old news that has become outdated.

If you want to use the Koran to support your beliefs, I'd be happy to switch over.

I do not need the Koran either because it is also old news.

You still have not shown me how I USE the Bible to support my beliefs....
And you still have not divulged your motive for doing this little dance. What is your motive?

 

[samtonga43]

I do not ignore that verse, I just interpret it differently than you do Imagine that, basing and entire belief about who Jesus is upon ONE verse. If that is not cherry-picking I have never seen cherry-picking.

Jesus is God
1. John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”
2. Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”
3. John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
4. John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“
5. Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“
6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“
7. John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“
8. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
9. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“
10. 1 John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.“
11. John 8:57-58 “The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
12. John 8:22-24 “This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.”
13. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.

 

[Jim46]

What do you mean by a spiritual teacher?

A person that we trust to lead us in learning to live the best life we can, continually trying to understand better what they say about it, and to do what they say to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is God
1. John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”
2. Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”
3. John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
4. John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“
5. Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“
6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“
7. John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“
8. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
9. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“
10. 1 John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.“
11. John 8:57-58 “The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
12. John 8:22-24 “This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.”
13. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.

I do not have time to go through this list right now, but some of these are verses I responded to before, when I explained why they DO NOT MEAN that Jesus is God. You can go on believing whatever you want to believe but that won't make Jesus into God.

Trailblazer said: There are so many reasons that Jesus cannot be God and I already posted some of the many verses to this Christian a few months ago.

Samtonga43 said:

1. Matthew 1:23
2. Mark 2:5-7
3. John 1:1
4. John 5:18
5. John 20:27-29
6. Philippians 2:5-7
7. Colossians 1:15
8. Colossians 2:9
9. 2 Peter 1:1
10. Hebrews 1:3

(Read all in context, of course).

You cannot avoid it, Tb. You can quibble about what these passages might mean, but there is a pattern here of claims about Jesus that could only be true of God.

Trailblazer said: I guess you really wanted to make a lot of work for me, but you only ended up disproving that Jesus was God.

1. Matthew 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus was “God with us” because He was a Manifestation of God and the Spirit of God with us, but He was not God in the flesh.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God. "
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

2. Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

The scribes were saying that only God can forgive sins so they thought it was blasphemy for Jesus to say that He could forgive sins. That does not mean Jesus was God, not even in the ball park.

3. John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 refers to God, not to Jesus.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. That is why Colossians 1:15 says “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” Jesus was a mirror image of God, but an image is not what it reflects.

4. John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God because Jesus said that God was His Father, but being the Son of God does not mean Jesus was God. It means that Jesus is not God.

5. John 20:27-29
27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

That is a flimsy attempt to say Jesus was God if I have ever seen one! Just because Thomas said “My Lord and my God” that does not mean Jesus was God! If you cannot figure out why that does not prove anything, then you need a course in logical proofs.

6. Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus was in the “form of God” and that means Jesus was not God, because a form is not what it is a form of.

7. Colossians 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus was in the “the image of God” and that means Jesus was not God, because an image is not what it is an image of.

8. Colossians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

ESV For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

NIV For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Bible says that God is sprit so God cannot dwell in bodily form! Besides that all of God could not “dwell” in a man!

9. 2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

This is another verse that disproves Jesus being God. It says “God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” It does not say “God our Saviour Jesus Christ.” That shows that God is separate from Jesus, which means Jesus cannot BE God.

10. Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Again, if Jesus was “the express image is God” that means Jesus was not God, because an image is not equivalent to what it is an image of.

 

[Trailblazer]

A person that we trust to lead us in learning to live the best life we can, continually trying to understand better what they say about it, and to do what they say to do.

Thanks, I have such a Person.

 

[Jim46]

Hello, I'm new to online forums. I chose this one specifically because I think it is very thought provoking. I love understanding and questioning different religious beliefs. I hope to have a debate that is robust, intriguing, and intellectually honest. I'm happy to debate anyone from any religious discipline and educational background. I currently do not have anyone to debate. I'll edit my title post, if possible, once the affirmative position has been occupied. Thanks in advance to anyone who will agree to debate. I'm ready to be convinced. Are you?

I've changed my mind about what religion I'm volunteering to debate with you. The religion that I'm volunteering to debate with you is learning to follow the prophets of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It might not interest you, because for me it isn't about beliefs. In fact part of what I'm promoting is freedom from all beliefs.

(later) There's a part of your thread title that didn't sink in until now.: "Let's see if I can be convinced." Do you mean, see if anyone can convince you that all of their beliefs are true? If so, then I might not have anything to debate about with you. I wouldn't be debating about any belief system. I would be arguing that learning to follow some religious teachers, including the prophets of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, has been part of bringing out the best possibilities in human life, and part of what is needed now, to help stop all kinds of injustices and oppression, and for the best possibilities to happen for all people everywhere.

Maybe another possibility for debating is that I think that trying to discredit belief systems helps to perpetuate all the world's problems and make them worse, and impedes human progress, without doing any good that can't be done better some other way.