Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

Why wouldn't it work?

Muffled said that God answers, but not everyone can hear. What is stopping God from making sure that everyone can hear?

It won't work because God does not want to make sure that everyone can hear, and God ONLY does what God chooses to do, not what humans want God to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest.He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

I have said this a hundred times on this forum. What is it about this that you don't understand? Why would an all-powerful God take marching orders from humans? This is really not that difficult for anyone with a logical mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

And didn't you say that claims need EVIDENCE to support them? I told you I'd remember that little claim you made.

I do have evidence to support the Baha'i Faith, boatloads of evidence.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

You dismissed the claim of Jesus' resurrection because there is no evidence to support them. Pleas tell me what OBJECTIVE evidence there is to support the claim that there really is a God who sent Mr B to Earth as His messenger.

I already told you that there is no objective evidence that proves that there is a God who sent Baha'u'llah to Earth as His Messenger.

I not only dismiss the claim of Jesus' resurrection because there is no evidence to support it, I dismiss it because it is idiotic.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer By the way, I'm still waiting for you to tell me if there are any other criteria that this person I mentioned needs to meet in order to be considered a messenger from God. If you want, you can refresh your memory about this person by reading THIS post. You gave a list of criteria in THIS post but also said those criteria were just a starting point. So far, this person has met all the criteria you have presented to be counted as a messenger from God. Do you have any further criteria you wish to apply, or are you willing to say that this person is a messenger from God?

I still do not know who "this person" is. Why is it a secret?

The minimum criteria for a Messenger of God would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

I said: "This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim."

Other criteria he would have to meet is that his religion could not contradict or be in opposition to any of the world religions that are already established and he could not talk down any of those religions and say his religion is the only true religion from God.

If this Messenger had claimed to be the return of Christ and the Messiah then he would have to meet additional criteria, such as fulfilling the prophecies that are about the return of Christ and the Messiah.

 

[Tiberius]

It won't work because God does not want to make sure that everyone can hear, and God ONLY does what God chooses to do, not what humans want God to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest.He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

I have said this a hundred times on this forum. What is it about this that you don't understand? Why would an all-powerful God take marching orders from humans? This is really not that difficult for anyone with a logical mind.

Here you go again, acting as though your interpretation of God is correct. And you're polite enough to do it in a conversation I wasn't even having with you.

 

[Tiberius]

I do have evidence to support the Baha'i Faith, boatloads of evidence.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Hold on there, Bucko.

I'm talking about evidence specifically for the claims like "Mr B was sent by God," and "God was literally talking to Mr B."

I already told you that there is no objective evidence that proves that there is a God who sent Baha'u'llah to Earth as His Messenger.

I not only dismiss the claim of Jesus' resurrection because there is no evidence to support it, I dismiss it because it is idiotic.

And I dismiss your claims for the same reason.

 

[Tiberius]

I still do not know who "this person" is. Why is it a secret?

If you had paid attention, you'd know I have already answered this question. I do not want you to judge this person based on your preconceived notions of them.

The minimum criteria for a Messenger of God would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

And I think I have already shown that this person has met these criteria.

I said: "This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim."

Other criteria he would have to meet is that his religion could not contradict or be in opposition to any of the world religions that are already established and he could not talk down any of those religions and say his religion is the only true religion from God.

If this Messenger had claimed to be the return of Christ and the Messiah then he would have to meet additional criteria, such as fulfilling the prophecies that are about the return of Christ and the Messiah.

This person has done things that some people believe are the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. This person has also been compared to Jesus and has been referred to as a "messiah." And the position of this person was shared not only by the predominate church in his country, but also by many followers of that church.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah! So for these crazy, out-there supernatural claims, you need EVIDENCE! And if there is no EVIDENCE, then you will reject the claim!

I'll remember that.

I will reject whatever I want to reject for whatever reason i want to.

When I see you doing what I've seen all other religious people do, then it's clear what your motivations are.

You do not know what my motivations are nor do you know the motivations of other religious people.

You KNOW the truth? As in, you KNOW it for a fact? Or is it just that you really REALLY have a strong opinion about it that you are convinced is true?

It does not matter how I know, I just know and I do not have explain how I know because you would never understand.

It would matter for you since it would mean your personal beliefs were wrong.

No, it would not mean that. There are Baha'is who were formerly Christians who believe that Jesus rose from the dead. We are not disallowed from believing that. That does not disprove one single claim of Baha'u'llah. The Baha'i Faith stands on its own merit. It is a separate religion from Christianity.

And there are still based on beliefs for which there is no actual evidence.

There is a boatload of verifiable evidence for the Baha'i Faith. The Bible is the only evidence for Christianity and it is not verifiable.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

And that's why I conclude that ALL sects of Christianity are wrong.

You remember I'm an atheist, right?

If you are an atheist and believe all sects of Christianity are wrong how can you believe that Jesus is God?

You believe the evidence that supports what you believe.

Of course I do. How could I believe evidence that does not support what I believe and still be a Baha'i?

You do realise that doesn't make what you believe right, yes? It just means you exist in an echo chamber and surround yourself with only the stuff that tells you what you want to hear.

We have already covered this. I have been a Baha'i for over 50 years. I have heard everything for and against my beliefs -- I don't need to hear any more, unless you have something new.

Oh, that's choice. If I was surrounding myself with only what I want to hear, I would only associate with other Baha'is, but I hardly ever even talk to Baha'is. Instead I am surrounded with people like you who disagree with my Baha'i beliefs.

It's called "Confirmation bias."

No, it is not. Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. I had no preexisting beliefs before I became a Baha'i, I was a blank slate so there was nothing to confirm.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[1]It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia
Moreover I am not searching for anything to confirm my beliefs NOW because they are already confirmed.

Wow, such arrogance. You spout off your OPINION and then claim it's PROOF.

I never claimed my opinion was proof of anything. In fact I said it wasn't proof for anyone except me..
When you cannot answer what I asked you call me names. Here it is again:
Did you even bother to look at the long posts I posted to samtonga43 yesterday that proves that, or are you going to continue clinging to YOUR interpretation of one Bible verse?

So if the mirror is not one with what it reflects, why did Jesus claim to be one with his Father?

I explained that more than once and you rejected my explanation. Here it is again:
“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same.

Yeah, I know that. Doesn't stop Muslims from being biased AGAINST Christian beliefs.

Why shouldn't they be? Christians are also biased against Muslim beliefs. The hundred-dollar difference is that Muslims believe in all the Messengers of God that predated Muhammad, including Jesus, whereas Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way to God. NOTHING could be more arrogant than that, nothing.

And yet how often have you brought up the Bible to support some claim about Baha'i faith? I even challenged you to NOT bring it up ever again, and you failed that challenge! It seems to me that you love bringing it up!

The only thing I ever brought up was the prophecies since as you might recall we were discussing prophecies Baha'u'llah fulfilled them, but I don't need those to prove who Baha'u'llah was.
YOU are the one who keeps talking about Christianity and the Bible, I just respond to posts.
Can you stop talking about Christianity and the Bible? I will if you will, in fact I will even if you won't.

Like I said, I'm telling you what I see. Perhaps you should consider WHY I see your actions that way? And I'm not the only person who has made these claims either.

You see me that way because of your bias. Funny thing, nobody else on this forum sees me that way except you and two other people who also have bone to pick with the Baha'i Faith, so of course they are biased against me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here you go again, acting as though your interpretation of God is correct. And you're polite enough to do it in a conversation I wasn't even having with you.

I can say whatever I want to whomever I want as long as I am within the forum rules.
I can also believe anything about God that I want to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hold on there, Bucko.

I'm talking about evidence specifically for the claims like "Mr B was sent by God," and "God was literally talking to Mr B."

I told you I did not have any evidence that proves that Baha'u'llah was sent by God or that God literally spoke to Baha'u'llah.
If I could prove that it would be a fact, not a belief.

And I dismiss your claims for the same reason.

Ask me if I care. I could not care less if you dismiss my beliefs. It is like water off a duck's back..

 

[Trailblazer]

If you had paid attention, you'd know I have already answered this question. I do not want you to judge this person based on your preconceived notions of them.

I would judge this person on their merit, that is all I judge anyone on.

And I think I have already shown that this person has met these criteria.

But you cannot explain how this person has met the criteria, so why should I believe you?

This person has done things that some people believe are the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. This person has also been compared to Jesus and has been referred to as a "messiah." And the position of this person was shared not only by the predominate church in his country, but also by many followers of that church.

I cannot do anything with that unless I know who the person is. Why would I believe you without having done my own research on "this person"?

Lots of men have claimed to be the return of Christ but only Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. This is all laid out in this book you declined to read: Thief in the Night by William Sears

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, but Baha'is make virtually every religion false too... except themselves. Not one do you believe is teaching and practicing the true teachings of their manifestation. Or, can you think of one?

Baha'is do not make any other religions false. They were never true to begin with or they were corrupted by the followers of these religions, but we have been over this before many times. Why go over it again?
No, I cannot think of one that is following the teachings of the Manifestation.

And, what do you say about religions that probably are totally false? Or, do Baha'is say that they too, "originally" had the truth? Like Mormonism, the Book of Mormon has Jesus coming to the Americas. you or some Baha'i has said that is not true. Yet, Baha'is still say nice things about Mormonism and Joseph Smith. And another religion I've asked Baha'is about, the religion of the Aztecs. True or not true? Or, "Originally" true, but then they misinterpreted their Scriptures and figured that God needed humans to be sacrificed to him?

Why does it matter if these religions had the truth? Baha'is do not believe that they are the religions that God wants humanity to follow in this age. I don't understand what it matters so much to you and I guess I never will understand.. The Baha'i Faith stands as a separate religion and it stands on its own merit. It is either true or false.

 

[Trailblazer]

And since when do we take the Bible literally? Did God walk in the garden with Adam? Did he send fire from heaven for Elijah? Did he speak from heaven when Jesus was baptized?

I do not believe that God walked in the Garden with Adam but I \believe that God spoke to Jesus from heaven when Jesus was baptized.

So does that mean that for the dispensation of Moses, or Abraham, or Buddha, they were the heads over every power and authority? But just until the next guy came?

No, not necessarily. Jesus has a special mission just like Baha'u'llah. Both spoke with great authority. I do not believe that the same held true for Moses, or Abraham, or Buddha.

And I think Buddha came after Moses, so he updated and replaced Judaism with new teachings from God? I don't think so, but what do you think?

No, I do not believe that progressive revelation works that way, at least it didn't work that way in the past, because until Baha'u'llah came the older religious were not abrogated by successive revelations from God. Just because the Revelation if Baha'u'llah abrogated all the revelations that came before His that does not mean it worked that way in the past ages. The coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah ushered in a whole new cycle of religion so what happened in the past is not going to ever happen again.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here you go again, acting as though your interpretation of God is correct. And you're polite enough to do it in a conversation I wasn't even having with you.

How similar is it when Christians, and each one might have a variation of what they tell you, tell you "The Truth"? They'll say everything was perfect until Adam sinned. Then God gave the law to the Jews to show them that they couldn't make it by their own doing. So God, in his all-loving way, sent his only son Jesus to die for us to pay the penalty we all owe to God for being no good, hopeless sinners.

Each religion has a different story. And each acts as if theirs is correct. Baha'is are polite enough to say that all the previous ones were correct... at the time... until people corrupted them and changed the true, "original" teachings and meanings... but now the only correct and true one is theirs... the message from God through his prophet/manifestation, Baha'u'llah. And of course there is proof. Which essentially means... Because he said so. He says, "Read my words. Look at my life. Isn't is obvious that I must be from God. Who else could write such profound flowery things and endure being held in captivity?"

 

[CG Didymus]

I not only dismiss the claim of Jesus' resurrection because there is no evidence to support it, I dismiss it because it is idiotic.

Was it so "idiotic" 2000 years ago. Everybody had dying and rising God/men. People and prophets could fly through the sky. People came back to life in many of the myths. That's why I keep saying that I'm with you if you call if fictional myth, but not if you call it allegorically true. And there is a slight difference. When Baha'is call it "allegorical", they are saying that the people mistakenly took the stories as being literally true when, in fact, the writers meant them to be taken as being symbolic. No, I think they were written to be taken literally. If those stories were not literally true, then they were false, and not some allegorical story that had some hidden, deep spiritual secret meaning. No, if if says the tomb was empty and Jesus was seen to be alive, I think that is exactly what the writers, all four of them, meant. And if you say it didn't happen, great. Most of us are with you. Then let's disregard the stories as nothing but embellished stories trying to make Jesus into a God... and they succeeded.

No, I do not believe that progressive revelation works that way, at least it didn't work that way in the past, because until Baha'u'llah came the older religious were not abrogated by successive revelations from God. Just because the Revelation if Baha'u'llah abrogated all the revelations that came before His that does not mean it worked that way in the past ages. The coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah ushered in a whole new cycle of religion so what happened in the past is not going to ever happen again.

And I agree. It didn't work that way. Each religion was separate. Some were related to others and evolved or grew out of them. But they had different beliefs, and different concepts of truth and Gods or God or no God. And, all the major ones are still around and still evolving. And still very different from each other. So just because the Baha'i Faith is here... doesn't mean any of the others have ceased to be relevant. I think they will adapt themselves to the changing world. And, if the Baha'is don't completely take over, then they will be nothing more than just another religion added to the mix.

 

[Trailblazer]

but now the only correct and true one is theirs... the message from God through his prophet/manifestation, Baha'u'llah. And of course there is proof. Which essentially means... Because he said so. He says, "Read my words. Look at my life. Isn't is obvious that I must be from God. Who else could write such profound flowery things and endure being held in captivity?"

You were going great guns until you said that "because he said so" is proof. Baha'u'llah NEVER said that or even implied that.
Here is what He wrote about how we should establish the truth of His claims:

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[samtonga43]

I know you want Jesus to be God, but you cannot use the Bible to prove that since the Bible proves that Jesus is not God.

There's that word 'prove' again. The Bible neither proves nor disproves anything at all. Just as the writings of the B.man neither prove nor disprove anything at all.

I have explained this to you several times.

 

[Trailblazer]

Was it so "idiotic" 2000 years ago. Everybody had dying and rising God/men. People and prophets could fly through the sky. People came back to life in many of the myths.

That was 2000 years ago but we are no longer living in that age so we know better than that

That's why I keep saying that I'm with you if you call if fictional myth, but not if you call it allegorically true. And there is a slight difference. When Baha'is call it "allegorical", they are saying that the people mistakenly took the stories as being literally true when, in fact, the writers meant them to be taken as being symbolic. No, I think they were written to be taken literally. If those stories were not literally true, then they were false, and not some allegorical story that had some hidden, deep spiritual secret meaning. No, if if says the tomb was empty and Jesus was seen to be alive, I think that is exactly what the writers, all four of them, meant. And if you say it didn't happen, great. Most of us are with you. Then let's disregard the stories as nothing but embellished stories trying to make Jesus into a God... and they succeeded.

We can never know the author's intentions but it really does not matter if the stories were written to be taken literally or if they wrote them based upon myths because either way that does not mean they are true.

And I agree. It didn't work that way. Each religion was separate. Some were related to others and evolved or grew out of them. But they had different beliefs, and different concepts of truth and Gods or God or no God. And, all the major ones are still around and still evolving. And still very different from each other. So just because the Baha'i Faith is here... doesn't mean any of the others have ceased to be relevant. I think they will adapt themselves to the changing world. And, if the Baha'is don't completely take over, then they will be nothing more than just another religion added to the mix.

The older religions are still relevant to their believers and they will be around for a long time, until people choose to unite under one common faith. Meanwhile, I believe that the most important thing the Baha'is can do is to do what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to do, and who knows, maybe other religions will follow suit.

“Through each and every one of the verses which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed, the doors of love and unity have been unlocked and flung open to the face of men. We have erewhile declared—and Our Word is the truth—: “Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.” Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished. From the heaven of God’s Will, and for the purpose of ennobling the world of being and of elevating the minds and souls of men, hath been sent down that which is the most effective instrument for the education of the whole human race.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 95

 

[Truthseeker]

No, not necessarily. Jesus has a special mission just like Baha'u'llah. Both spoke with great authority. I do not believe that the same held true for Moses, or Abraham, or Buddha.

Why not for Moses, Abraham, or Buddha? They all had a special mission in their time and spoke with great authority, in my opinion. How do you know they did not?

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is do not make any other religions false. They were never true to begin with or they were corrupted by the followers of these religions, but we have been over this before many times. Why go over it again?

The Baha'i Faith says that all the major religions came from God. Then turns around and says that all of them have lost the original teachings and added in man-made doctrines and misinterpreted their own Scriptures. Yeah, that could very well be and probably is true. So that makes those other religions false, doesn't it? And I'm getting that from what is taught in the Baha'i Faith. And I'm going over a lot of the same things, because Baha'is act as if they love and believe in all the other religions and believe in their Scriptures. They don't. They reject the belief and practices of every other religion.

I not only dismiss the claim of Jesus' resurrection because there is no evidence to support it, I dismiss it because it is idiotic.

Was it so "idiotic" 2000 years ago.

Well if God supposedly made humans out of nothing, I don't see why he couldn't make a human come back to life. But that's assuming this God really exists. But in the minds of the people 2000 years ago, their concept of God could and did make dead people come back to life and that God could incarnate into human form.

That was 2000 years ago but we are no longer living in that age so we know better than that

Right... Today we know better. Those things were probably just invented by ignorant, unscientific, superstitious people. But wait... Can a woman get pregnant without the other half of the genes that come from the man? Isn't that idiotic too? A virgin giving birth? 2000 years ago that was no big deal. The Gods impregnated women all the time. So why could the true God send his Holy Spirit down to get Mary pregnant? 2000 years ago, why not?

But today? Why would we believe such an idiotic, unscientific thing like that? Unless, the Baha'i Faith says it is true. Then, I guess, it must be true? No, why reject the resurrection but accept the supposed virgin birth? Something that could easily be explained away by saying it was "allegorical". Who needs it? All it accomplished was to make Jesus special... half human, half God. And untainted by Adam sin. But in today's scientific world, why believe that? Especially after rejecting the six day creation story, the world wide flood, the parting of the seas, probably Jonah and the big fish story and then the big one, rejecting the resurrection of Jesus. Why after all that say that he was born of a virgin?

So can a person believe 90% of a religion and still be counted as a true believer? Unfortunately, I think, even Baha'is come off as if they believe 100% of whatever Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith says... but I'm guessing that many have their doubts about some of the things taught in the Baha'i Faith. But how open can they be about expressing their doubts?

 

[stvdv]

Optimism and pessimism are concept reactions in a mind conscious of values as well as of facts.

Demanding proofs of the spiritual experiences of others is laziness on the part of the so-called Atheist who is afraid to search for God within himself. Atheist are "shucking responsibility" for fear that it might effect their separatist self-centered persona. The EGO self really fears being held by a strong religious movement.

A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably super-scientific.

"This profound experience of the reality of the divine indwelling forever transcends the crude materialistic technique of the physical sciences. You cannot put spiritual joy under a microscope; you cannot weigh love in a balance; you cannot measure moral values; neither can you estimate the quality of spiritual worship."

I could not have said it better @stvdvRF