Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Tiberius]

I will reject whatever I want to reject for whatever reason i want to.

Then don't pretend your beliefs are related to reality in any way.

You do not know what my motivations are nor do you know the motivations of other religious people.

I used to be a religious person. I know from experience.

It does not matter how I know, I just know and I do not have explain how I know because you would never understand.

No need for a temper tantrum.

No, it would not mean that. There are Baha'is who were formerly Christians who believe that Jesus rose from the dead. We are not disallowed from believing that. That does not disprove one single claim of Baha'u'llah. The Baha'i Faith stands on its own merit. It is a separate religion from Christianity.

You seem to lean on it a lot.

There is a boatload of verifiable evidence for the Baha'i Faith. The Bible is the only evidence for Christianity and it is not verifiable.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

You seem to be deliberately missing the point. I have already agreed with you that there are plenty of things for which there is verifiable evidence for the Baha'i faith. That there really was a Mr B and all that.

When I speak of beliefs for which there is no evidence, I am talking about the Belief that Mr B was actually speaking with God and other such things. I did VERY CLEARLY state I was talking about the beliefs with NO VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

If you are an atheist and believe all sects of Christianity are wrong how can you believe that Jesus is God?

Simple.

I DON'T.

All I have done is point out that there are Bible passages which support that position, and point out that your dismissal of those passages is completely arbitrary.

Of course I do. How could I believe evidence that does not support what I believe and still be a Baha'i?

Once again you miss the point.

You believe the evidence that supports what you believe SIMPLY BECAUSE it supports what you believe.

We have already covered this. I have been a Baha'i for over 50 years. I have heard everything for and against my beliefs -- I don't need to hear any more, unless you have something new.

So what? Do you think that people who hold beliefs for a long time must be correct in those beliefs?

Oh, that's choice. If I was surrounding myself with only what I want to hear, I would only associate with other Baha'is, but I hardly ever even talk to Baha'is. Instead I am surrounded with people like you who disagree with my Baha'i beliefs.

So what? You've arbitrarily dismissed every single disagreeing viewpoint, and the most you can say as reason for disagreeing is that you have a different interpretation.

No, it is not. Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. I had no preexisting beliefs before I became a Baha'i, I was a blank slate so there was nothing to confirm.

Doesn't stop you from doing it now.

I never claimed my opinion was proof of anything. In fact I said it wasn't proof for anyone except me..
When you cannot answer what I asked you call me names. Here it is again:
Did you even bother to look at the long posts I posted to samtonga43 yesterday that proves that, or are you going to continue clinging to YOUR interpretation of one Bible verse?

HA! You claim you never said it was proof, yet the line you quoted from yourself was, "Did you even bother to look at the long posts I posted to samtonga43 yesterday that proves that..."

I explained that more than once and you rejected my explanation. Here it is again:
“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same.

So you admit that Jesus and God are "one and the same"? That's exactly what I've been saying!

Why shouldn't they be? Christians are also biased against Muslim beliefs. The hundred-dollar difference is that Muslims believe in all the Messengers of God that predated Muhammad, including Jesus, whereas Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way to God. NOTHING could be more arrogant than that, nothing.

That is irrelevant to my point.

The only thing I ever brought up was the prophecies since as you might recall we were discussing prophecies Baha'u'llah fulfilled them, but I don't need those to prove who Baha'u'llah was.
YOU are the one who keeps talking about Christianity and the Bible, I just respond to posts.
Can you stop talking about Christianity and the Bible? I will if you will, in fact I will even if you won't.

I brought it up because you were the one using the Bible to support your beliefs.

You see me that way because of your bias. Funny thing, nobody else on this forum sees me that way except you and two other people who also have bone to pick with the Baha'i Faith, so of course they are biased against me.

And there you go, arrogantly assuming that I'm disagreeing with you because I'm anti-Baha'i. I'm not. I'm against logical fallacies and I see you using them in spades.

 

[Tiberius]

I can say whatever I want to whomever I want as long as I am within the forum rules.
I can also believe anything about God that I want to believe.

Yes you can, and yes you can.

Doesn't stop it being rude.

 

[Tiberius]

I told you I did not have any evidence that proves that Baha'u'llah was sent by God or that God literally spoke to Baha'u'llah.
If I could prove that it would be a fact, not a belief.

Ask me if I care. I could not care less if you dismiss my beliefs. It is like water off a duck's back..

So it appears you are deceptively claiming that there is proof of Baha'i faith in order to suggest that the metaphysical claims that faith makes are true.

That's about as honest as me taking the fact that Star Trek says that the moon is real and that Paris actually exists and claiming that I have strong evidence that Star Trek is true in order to get people to believe in Klingons.

 

[Tiberius]

I would judge this person on their merit, that is all I judge anyone on.

If you are just going to judge them on the merit, why the big thing about how they need to meet certain criteria?

But you cannot explain how this person has met the criteria, so why should I believe you?

I have explained how.

I cannot do anything with that unless I know who the person is. Why would I believe you without having done my own research on "this person"?

Because it's irrelevant.

If you provide a list of criteria and say, "Anyone who meets these criteria can be considered a messenger of God," and then I say that a particular person has met those criteria, then that should be enough for you to agree that this person is a messenger of God.

If you describe to me a shape that is composed of straight lines, all the internal angles are equal and all the sides are the same length, I don't need to see it to know that it is a square.

Lots of men have claimed to be the return of Christ but only Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. This is all laid out in this book you declined to read: Thief in the Night by William Sears

So what happens when the next messenger comes? Are you going to say, "Yeah, well, Mr B already fulfilled those prophecies, so this new guy isn't needed."

 

[Tiberius]

Demanding proofs of the spiritual experiences of others is laziness on the part of the so-called Atheist who is afraid to search for God within himself.

No, it's just asking others to support the claims they make.

If I tell you I can turn into a squirrel and frolic in the treetops at will, you'd ask me to back up that claim before you believed it, wouldn't you? Likewise, when an atheist asks that others provide evidence to support the spiritual claims they make, it's for exactly the same reason.

I could well use your same argument against the a-squirrelists:

Demanding proofs of the squirrely experiences of others is laziness on the part of the so-called A-squirrelist who is afraid to search for the squirrel within himself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not for Moses, Abraham, or Buddha? They all had a special mission in their time and spoke with great authority, in my opinion. How do you know they did not?

You are correct, according to Baha'u'llah all the Manifestations of God all had a special mission so we should never discriminate against any of them.

Baha’u’llah warns us never to make any distinction between any of the Messengers of God because they all arise to proclaim the same religion, since there is only one eternal religion of God. He wrote that the works and acts of all the Messengers of God were all ordained by God, a reflection of His Will and Purpose, meaning that all the religions are equally true and all the Messengers are equal in stature.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i Faith says that all the major religions came from God. Then turns around and says that all of them have lost the original teachings and added in man-made doctrines and misinterpreted their own Scriptures. Yeah, that could very well be and probably is true. So that makes those other religions false, doesn't it? And I'm getting that from what is taught in the Baha'i Faith. And I'm going over a lot of the same things, because Baha'is act as if they love and believe in all the other religions and believe in their Scriptures. They don't. They reject the belief and practices of every other religion.

No, that is not true. As I have said repeatedly, the spiritual teachings of all the revealed religions are true and we do not reject them. We disagree with the Christian doctrines because we believe they are man-made, not God-given, and we disagree with some of the Christian Bible interpretations, since we go by what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha interpreted them to mean.

Well if God supposedly made humans out of nothing, I don't see why he couldn't make a human come back to life. But that's assuming this God really exists. But in the minds of the people 2000 years ago, their concept of God could and did make dead people come back to life and that God could incarnate into human form.

Right... Today we know better. Those things were probably just invented by ignorant, unscientific, superstitious people. But wait... Can a woman get pregnant without the other half of the genes that come from the man? Isn't that idiotic too? A virgin giving birth? 2000 years ago that was no big deal. The Gods impregnated women all the time. So why could the true God send his Holy Spirit down to get Mary pregnant? 2000 years ago, why not?

But today? Why would we believe such an idiotic, unscientific thing like that? Unless, the Baha'i Faith says it is true. Then, I guess, it must be true? No, why reject the resurrection but accept the supposed virgin birth?

Baha'u'llah confirmed that the virgin birth is true, and Abdu'l-Baha said that the resurrection was not literally true, so that is what we go by.

So can a person believe 90% of a religion and still be counted as a true believer? Unfortunately, I think, even Baha'is come off as if they believe 100% of whatever Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith says... but I'm guessing that many have their doubts about some of the things taught in the Baha'i Faith. But how open can they be about expressing their doubts?

I wouldn't know about other Baha'is, I only know about myself. I don't really think it matters if we question certain things as long as we believe the important things.

 

[Trailblazer]

I used to be a religious person. I know from experience.

You only know your own experience.

You seem to be deliberately missing the point. I have already agreed with you that there are plenty of things for which there is verifiable evidence for the Baha'i faith. That there really was a Mr B and all that.

When I speak of beliefs for which there is no evidence, I am talking about the Belief that Mr B was actually speaking with God and other such things. I did VERY CLEARLY state I was talking about the beliefs with NO VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

I missed nothing, I already know that, but I already told you at least three times there is no verifiable evidence the Baha'u'llah was actually speaking with God, so I consider this a closed case.

So what? Do you think that people who hold beliefs for a long time must be correct in those beliefs?

I never said that. They could be correct or incorrect.

So what? You've arbitrarily dismissed every single disagreeing viewpoint, and the most you can say as reason for disagreeing is that you have a different interpretation.

That is all I need to say, I don't need and excuse for having my own interpretation of a verse.

And in case you did not notice, I deleted most of this post because I am no longer going to discuss the Bible or reply to accusatory or snarly remarks. Free will is a charm.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes you can, and yes you can.

Doesn't stop it being rude.

Talk is cheap. Show me where I was rude or retract your comment.
Evidence matters.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it appears you are deceptively claiming that there is proof of Baha'i faith in order to suggest that the metaphysical claims that faith makes are true.

That's about as honest as me taking the fact that Star Trek says that the moon is real and that Paris actually exists and claiming that I have strong evidence that Star Trek is true in order to get people to believe in Klingons.

Here you are implying that I am deceptive and a liar, and you call me rude. It seems like all the name-calling and accusations are from you to me and all I am doing is trying to defend myself. Of course I could prove that but I have better things to do.

I was never less than honest with you. I said there is evidence that indicates that the Baha'i Faith is a true religion, but I never said or even implied that there is any way to prove that any metaphysical claims, such as God was speaking to Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you provide a list of criteria and say, "Anyone who meets these criteria can be considered a messenger of God," and then I say that a particular person has met those criteria, then that should be enough for you to agree that this person is a messenger of God.

No, that is not enough. Why should I take your word for it that some person met the criteria?
You never explained HOW this person met the criteria because you can't explain how without telling me who the person is.

So what happens when the next messenger comes? Are you going to say, "Yeah, well, Mr B already fulfilled those prophecies, so this new guy isn't needed."

When the next Messenger comes the Bible prophecies will be irrelevant since they were only written for one purpose - so people who wanted to know could identify the return of Christ and the Messiah. The new Messenger will be needed and people will judge Him the same way we should be judging Baha'u'llah, according to those criteria I listed.

 

[Colt]

No, it's just asking others to support the claims they make.

If I tell you I can turn into a squirrel and frolic in the treetops at will, you'd ask me to back up that claim before you believed it, wouldn't you? Likewise, when an atheist asks that others provide evidence to support the spiritual claims they make, it's for exactly the same reason.

I could well use your same argument against the a-squirrelists:

Demanding proofs of the squirrely experiences of others is laziness on the part of the so-called A-squirrelist who is afraid to search for the squirrel within himself.

God is a subjective experience like love. Being subjective one cannot provide objective, testable, undeniable "proof" of the experience. Atheists seem to know this already yet demand proofs that they know cant be demonstrated.

 

[Mock Turtle]

God is a subjective experience like love. Being subjective one cannot provide objective, testable, undeniable "proof" of the experience. Atheists seem to know this already yet demand proofs that they know cant be demonstrated.

But at least for this, many understand how it can be delusional, unlike the experience of God for so many it seems.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why not for Moses, Abraham, or Buddha? They all had a special mission in their time and spoke with great authority, in my opinion. How do you know they did not?

What I have a problem with is that the Baha'i Faith makes them manifestations of God. There own religion doesn't make Abraham and Moses into manifestations. And how does the Buddha become a manifestation of a God he didn't even talk about? The only thing I've heard Baha'is say about that is that "originally" Buddha did talk about God. But that would imply that we don't have the original teachings of the Buddha. If that is so, then doesn't that mean that we don't have true Scriptures of what the Buddha taught?

 

[CG Didymus]

God is a subjective experience like love. Being subjective one cannot provide objective, testable, undeniable "proof" of the experience. Atheists seem to know this already yet demand proofs that they know cant be demonstrated.

Even within Christianity the "spiritual" experience happens even though people are believing very different things about God and Jesus. Catholics, Fundamentalist Protestants and Pentecostals all experience God and Jesus. But the Catholics tie in a lot of things about Mary. The Fundamentalist rejects those kinds of doctrines held by the Catholics, and, some Fundies, reject the "gifts" of the spirit beliefs of the Pentecostals. So what does that show? To me it makes it all very subjective. People can believe in many things... things that aren't real and true, yet the can experience the power and joy within. As long as they believe it is true.

 

[CG Didymus]

All I have done is point out that there are Bible passages which support that position, and point out that your dismissal of those passages is completely arbitrary.

I'm constantly arguing with Baha'is over the resurrection story in the NT. They accept the crucifixion of Jesus, but as soon as the story goes into the empty tomb and the appearances of the risen Jesus, they say that those verses were not meant to be taken literally, but allegorically. Of course, for Baha'is they can't be literally true. They don't believe he rose physically from the dead but only spiritually. My argument is then why not call if fictional myth or even an embellished, made up lie to make Jesus into a God? But they can't go that far. They need to "believe" in Jesus and reject everything that don't like about what the NT says about Jesus.

Lots of men have claimed to be the return of Christ but only Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. This is all laid out in this book you declined to read: Thief in the Night by William Sears

Still, as if Bill Sears knows. An earthquake, a meteor shower, a "dark" day? All of those things happened way too far away from Persia, and way to many years before, to have any connection to The Bab and/or Baha'u'llah. Bill Sears was making a lot of things up. Sorry, but he loses his credibility... accept for "true believers". Those that have decided that they have seen enough "proof", therefore, everything Baha'i must be true and accepted.

So what happens when the next messenger comes? Are you going to say, "Yeah, well, Mr B already fulfilled those prophecies, so this new guy isn't needed."

One prophecy says something about a "child" is born unto us. Well Christians have a "child" born unto them. But Baha'is say, "Wait a minute... the government is not on his shoulders. That's our guy Baha'u'llah. The government is going to be on his shoulders." But when was he ever referred to as a "child" being born unto us? And Christians believe that when Jesus comes back the government will be on his shoulders, and at that time, all those end time prophecies will be fulfilled. Then, of course, Baha'is say that it is their guy that going to and has fulfilled those end time prophecies.

Then TB comes back with, "Well, prophecy doesn't prove anything. Anybody can make it say anything they want." Yes, they can like Bill Sears. Or, the Christians when they take one verse out of Isaiah and make it a prophecy about Jesus being born of a virgin. Yeah Christians... that is just great. But what about the rest of the verses that go on to explain what this boy will do and what will happen? Those verses have nothing to do with Jesus. So Christians ignore them. So yes, TB is right. Prophecies prove nothing. They are too easily manipulated and cherry-picked to say anything the Christians or Baha'is want them to say. But, I will say if a person is interested in religion, the Baha'i Faith is worth looking into. For me, there's just too many things that I can't agree with or believe in.

 

[Trailblazer]

What I have a problem with is that the Baha'i Faith makes them manifestations of God. There own religion doesn't make Abraham and Moses into manifestations.

The Baha'i Faith does not make Moses and Abraham Manifestations of God. Baha'u'llah wrote that they were in the Kitab-i-Iqan and that is why we believe it.

 

[night912]

I told you I did not have any evidence that proves that Baha'u'llah was sent by God or that God literally spoke to Baha'u'llah.
If I could prove that it would be a fact, not a belief.

No, it would be both, a fact and a belief. A "fact" is independent of you, and a "belief" is dependent of you. You would be irrational if you believe that something is true without evidence to support it but don't believe a fact that has evidence to support it.

 

[Trailblazer]

My argument is then why not call if fictional myth or even an embellished, made up lie to make Jesus into a God? But they can't go that far. They need to "believe" in Jesus and reject everything that don't like about what the NT says about Jesus.

No, we do not reject everything we don't like about what the NT says about Jesus, we just disbelieve that Jesus rose bodily from the grave.

 

[Trailblazer]

Still, as if Bill Sears knows. An earthquake, a meteor shower, a "dark" day? All of those things happened way too far away from Persia, and way to many years before, to have any connection to The Bab and/or Baha'u'llah. Bill Sears was making a lot of things up. Sorry, but he loses his credibility... accept for "true believers". Those that have decided that they have seen enough "proof", therefore, everything Baha'i must be true and accepted.

No, it does not matter how many years before Christ returned these things would happen because the Bible does not stipulate any amount of time. It only stipulates the order in which they would happen. They happened in the exact order that they were prophesied to happen, and shortly after that Baha'u'llah appeared.

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

The signs of Revelation that would appear in succession, leading up to the day of the return of Christ were, in order:

1. The great earthquake
2. The darkening of the sun and the moon.
3. The falling of the stars from the heavens.

As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf