Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Bree]

But there was / is direction. And there was / is a director.
As you say yourself, every creature is programmed by its creator, via evolution.

evolution does not require direction....it is said to occur naturally by small minute changes over long periods of time. No direction, no thought, no intent.

Small changes occur WITHIN a species....but that does not explain how the species got there in the first place because every species requires a fully developed and functioning reproductive system in order to survive. Evolutionists would have us believe that organisms came from non living matter and gradually formed into the many species we see in the world today.

That is not in harmony with that we see occuring in the natural world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is God
1. John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”
2. Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”
3. John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
4. John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

I guess you must like making work for me. All you succeed in doing is helping me prove that Jesus is not God.
It is worth all the trouble though because this is SUCH an important topic.

1. John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

2. Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus was in the “form of God” and that means Jesus was not God, because a form is not what it is a form of.

3. John 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee” means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same.

4. John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

Lovely, I love how someone changed the translation and ADDED “who is himself God.” Nice try, but I already went down this road so I have all the correct translations saved in a Word document:

John 1:18

KJ21 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

CJB No one has ever seen God; but the only and unique Son, who is identical with God and is at the Father’s side — he has made him known.

ERV No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

NMB No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

NRSV No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

NTE Nobody has ever seen God. The only-begotten God, who is intimately close to the father – he has brought him to light.

TPT No one has ever gazed upon the fullness of God’s splendor except the uniquely beloved Son, who is cherished by the Father and held close to his heart. Now he has unfolded to us the full explanation of who God truly is!

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

VOICE God, unseen until now, is revealed in the Voice, God’s only Son, straight from the Father’s heart.

WEB No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

WYC No man saw ever God [No man ever saw God], but the one begotten Son, that is in the bosom of the Father, he hath told out.

YLT God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is God (5-13)

5. Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

ESV For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

NIV For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Bible says that God is sprit so it cannot lives in bodily form! Besides that all of God could not “dwell” in a man!

10 He is the head over every power and authority
During His dispensation, Jesus was once the head over every power and authority but not anymore.

6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

Just because the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming to be God that does not mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. If you read the verses in context you can clearly see that Jesus was NOT claiming to be God. In John 30:36, Jesus said that He claimed to be the Son of God, NOT God. A Son is not His Father, they are separate from each other.

John 10 KJV

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father, even though the Father is in the Son.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

7. John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“

The Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God because Jesus said that God was His Father, but being the Son of God does not mean Jesus was God. It means that Jesus is not God, but rather the SON of God.

8. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
John 1 King James Version (KJV)

I believe that the Word refers to Jesus.

The Word was God because Jesus was God manifested in the flesh

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus was not God incarnated in the flesh, because God cannot become flesh:

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

The following two verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

To summarize, the Word was Jesus who was a Manifestation of God.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the "appearance of God." The Word means the divine perfections that "appeared" in Jesus Christ. That's why we have this verse further down.

9. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“

The Word (Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us means that Jesus, who had previously been with God in the spiritual world (heaven) before His birth, was born into this world (made flesh) and walked among us.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

The reason John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," is because Jesus was with God in the spiritual world in the beginning.

10. 1 John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.“

The Son of God is not God, He is the SON of God.

11. John 8:57-58 “The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

Jesus existed before Abraham because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world (heaven) long before Abraham was born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

12. John 8:22-24 “This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.”

That’s right, the soul of came down from ”above” the spiritual world (heaven), as noted in #11 above. To explain in brief, Jesus was made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and appeared in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

13. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.

CONTEXT is everything. These verses read in context clearly show that Jesus is not God. Jesus was a servant of God and the servant is not greater than his lord and he that is sent (Jesus) is not greater than he (God) who sent him (Jesus). and he that receiveth me (Jesus) receiveth him (God) that sent me.

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

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I know you want Jesus to be God, but you cannot use the Bible to prove that since the Bible proves that Jesus is not God.

 

[Tiberius]

How I know is not all subjective, some of it is objective.

Is any of this "objective" knowing how you know that Mr B was a messenger from God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is any of this "objective" knowing how you know that Mr B was a messenger from God?

Yes, the facts surrounding the Person and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah are are part of the objective knowing.

adrian009 said: Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

Trailblazer said: Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha'i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age. Such was the effect that little book had upon my heart and mind. In the Preface to the paperback it says:

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings

And now that I have clearly glimpsed the spirit of this book I guess I am a lifer.

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

 

[Tiberius]

No, I have a belief, and I have solid reasons for holding that belief.

I see belief as a subset of opinion. A belief is a type of opinion just as a cat is a type of mammal.

I do not ignore that verse, I just interpret it differently than you do
Imagine that, basing and entire belief about who Jesus is upon ONE verse. If that is not cherry-picking I have never seen cherry-picking.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same.

Imagine basing your interpretation of a particular verse on what you have already decided from other verses.

The fact that the verses say “I and my Father" means that there are TWO entities, Jesus and the Father. The verse does not say "I and my Father became one."

And that is nothing more than the difference between past tens and present tense.

I sure hope not, because you never will.

Yeah, I know.

No it isn't, but that does not mean that the resurrection story is true.

I know. Trust me, I don't believe it is true either. But you are motivated to believe the resurrection story to be false because to believe it true would be to deny what you have already decided is the truth.

I believe it is false because there is no evidence to support it. You can not make the same claim.

That's right, beliefs do not determine what is true or false. People are free to BELIEVE anything they want to believe, but there is ZERO evidence for the bodily resurrection, ZERO, so it is simply a faith-based belief.

And much of what you believe is likewise based solely on faith, so why should I not dismiss that for the same reason you dismiss the resurrection?

You're darn tootin' and God did it before Jesus and will do it again after Baha'u'llah.
I can believe and say anything I want to believe and say, and there is nothing you can do about it.
And you can believe and say whatever you want to believe and say.

Yes you can, and I am certainly not saying you are not allowed to believe whatever it is that you want to believe.

All I'm doing is pointing out where I see your beliefs and standards for judging what is valid evidence for beliefs are inconsistent.

But to say that Jesus is God and the only way would mean that Christianity is the only true religion and ALL the other religions are false. Sorry, I am not going to absurd and completely illogical place.

From my point of view, your own religious beliefs are just as absurd and illogical as Christianity.

I do not claim the verse is false. I just claim YOUR interpretation is false (see above).
Who do you think you are that you have the one and only correct interpretation of the verse? Who gave you any authority to interpret the Bible correctly? The verse does not say "I and my Father became one." It is utterly absurd to believe that the ineffable God became a man. NOTHING could be more absurd.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

Well, I could make the argument that if I am going to find out the correct interpretation of something, then I should go to the people who are experts in that topic. If I want an opinion on plumbing, I go to a plumber. If I want a medical opinion, I go to a doctor. And when it comes to opinions on Christianity, then I go to Christians.

I just respond to posts with what I believe. I could not care less if anyone agrees with me.

So what? Does not change the fact that you are motivated to find evidence that supports what you have already decided is correct.

You just keep digging your grave deeper and deeper. Logically speaking, just because the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming to be God that does not mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. If you read the verses in context you can clearly see that Jesus was NOT claiming to be God. In John 30:36, Jesus said that He claimed to be the Son of God, NOT God. A Son is not His Father, they are separate from each other.

Oh rubbish. If someone tells you that they and Jack are one, you would take it to mean that their name was Jack, wouldn't you? I don't know of a single person who would conclude that they MUST be talking about their dad.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

And what would you think if someone told you that they and their bathroom mirror were one? You'd think they had some pretty whacky ideas, wouldn't you?

Muslims know the Christian doctrines are false, just like Baha'is do, but they have no bias against Jesus, the REAL Jesus who was a Messenger of God.

It's funny that you expect me to believe that.

No, I just respond to posted that are posted to me and explain my interpretation of certain verses. I do not cherry-pick the Bible to support my Baha'i beliefs. I don't need the Bible for anything because Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 tablets. Moreover, the Bible is like old news that has become outdated.

Yes you do cherry pick the Bible.

The instant you hold that some Bible passages and interpretations are true and others are false based solely on whether they support your own religious beliefs or not, you are cherry picking.

You still have not shown me how I USE the Bible to support my beliefs....

Yes I have. You pick and choose what passages and what interpretations you take to be correct based solely on whether they support your own religious beliefs or not.

And you still have not divulged your motive for doing this little dance. What is your motive?

To show that your beliefs are just as illogical as Christianity.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, the facts surrounding the Person and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah are are part of the objective knowing.

adrian009 said: Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

Trailblazer said: Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha'i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age. Such was the effect that little book had upon my heart and mind. In the Preface to the paperback it says:

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings

And now that I have clearly glimpsed the spirit of this book I guess I am a lifer.

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

No, you misunderstand.

I'm not disputing any of the objective facts.

I'm asking if your knowledge that God is literally real and literally sent Mr B to Earth to be his messenger is part of this objective knowing.

 

[CG Didymus]

What was true about Jesus? Baha'u'llah explained what really matters about Jesus in the passage below.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Why do we need to know more about Jesus? The Dispensation of Jesus is over. We are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah so that is who you should be asking about, yet you rarely do. It is always about the older Messengers of God. Why is the past so important to you?

Same old stuff... Baha'u'llah and the others say meaningless things about how great Jesus and the Bible are, while at the same time making them irrelevant. A "fresh" capacity? To do what? Have his followers write fictional stories about him raising from the dead and casting out demons and conquering Satan? Then later, other Christian leaders made him into a God based on what his earlier followers wrote about him? If I were to listen to Baha'is are really saying, there is nothing true in the gospels about Jesus... And there is nothing true in what the major sects of Christianity believe about him.

What "great" things have been done in the name of Jesus? Lots of things, but that Jesus that inspired those Christians is not the same Jesus that the Baha'is believe in. And I'd be fine with that, if Baha'is were more honest about what they really think about the Bible and Jesus. Lots of us don't believe he's God. Lots of us don't believe he literally rose from the dead or that there is a Satan, the devil... or that the seas parted for Moses and the Hebrews... or that there ever was an Adam and Eve. But I think they are myth. Baha'is make them so very true and so very great, then say, "Well, you can't take those things literally"? What? Then it's not true. It is fiction. It is myth. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead. If God didn't speak from heaven. If Jesus didn't literally heal the lepers and walk on water, then what did he do? But what about the Christians that believed in all those things that did great things? What were the "infused" with? False beliefs? Yet, because they believed them, they gave their lives to do great things for their Lord and God, Jesus.

But to say that Jesus is God and the only way would mean that Christianity is the only true religion and ALL the other religions are false. Sorry, I am not going to absurd and completely illogical place.

Okay, but Baha'is make virtually every religion false too... except themselves. Not one do you believe is teaching and practicing the true teachings of their manifestation. Or, can you think of one?

And, what do you say about religions that probably are totally false? Or, do Baha'is say that they too, "originally" had the truth? Like Mormonism, the Book of Mormon has Jesus coming to the Americas. you or some Baha'i has said that is not true. Yet, Baha'is still say nice things about Mormonism and Joseph Smith. And another religion I've asked Baha'is about, the religion of the Aztecs. True or not true? Or, "Originally" true, but then they misinterpreted their Scriptures and figured that God needed humans to be sacrificed to him?

 

[Truthseeker]

It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age. Such was the effect that little book had upon my heart and mind. In the Preface to the paperback it says:

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings

And now that I have clearly glimpsed the spirit of this book I guess I am a lifer.

That's beautiful. Intellectual and spiritual recognition is what the Baha'i Faith is about.

 

[Muffled]

If the difficulty lies with the people and God hasn't taken that into account (and let's face it, he'd know about it, and know how to deal with it), then yeah, it seems that God either does have the difficulty, he's set a standard that he knows we can't meet, or he isn't worthy to be called God.

I believe God could not have made it more plain or simple.

 

[Muffled]

If an omnipotent, omniscient being cannot get its message clearly to its own creation, then I would definitely say it is its problem not ours. It's not even as if all the people who claim to have heard from it agree about what the message is, very far from it.

I believe the reason people don't agree is not because the message is difficult but because people want to create their own beliefs and replace the simple stuff with something complex and difficult to understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see belief as a subset of opinion. A belief is a type of opinion just as a cat is a type of mammal.

Okay.

Imagine basing your interpretation of a particular verse on what you have already decided from other verses.

I did not 'already decide' anything.
The Bible needs to be understood in its entirety. Certain verses support other verses as verses complement each other. They are not contradictory. Jesus was not a divided person.

What 'other verses' have you looked at to support your interpretation that John 10:30 means Jesus is God? If you haven't looked at any other verses this is cherry-picking.

And that is nothing more than the difference between past tens and present tense.

Sorry but no.
"I and my Father are one" does not mean the same thing as "I and my Father became one."
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, NOT God. Do you understand the difference between a Father and a Son?

John 10 KJV

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father, even though the Father is in the Son.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

I know. Trust me, I don't believe it is true either. But you are motivated to believe the resurrection story to be false because to believe it true would be to deny what you have already decided is the truth.

I believe it is false because there is no evidence to support it. You can not make the same claim.

I certainly CAN make the same claim. I believe it is false because there is no evidence to support it.
You are speaking for my motivations and you are wrong. The sooner you understand that the better, because there is no point having a discussion with someone who tells me what I think and insists that they know my motivations. Do I tell you what YOU are motivated by?

I already KNOW what the truth is and the resurrection story is not going to change that. I would in it even if I was not a Baha'i, as it is completely absurd that a man rose from the dead, and it does not MATTER if Jesus rose from the dead

Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

you are motivated to believe the resurrection story to be false because to believe it true would be to deny what you have already decided is the truth.

And much of what you believe is likewise based solely on faith, so why should I not dismiss that for the same reason you dismiss the resurrection?

Not everything I believe is based upon faith, only some things, and I don't believe in ridiculous things that don't MATTER. Please tell me why it would matter if Jesus had risen from the dead. What difference would it make for anyone who lived back then or for people living now?

Yes you can, and I am certainly not saying you are not allowed to believe whatever it is that you want to believe.

All I'm doing is pointing out where I see your beliefs and standards for judging what is valid evidence for beliefs are inconsistent.

No, my beliefs and standards for judging what is valid evidence for beliefs are NOT inconsistent at all.

From my point of view, your own religious beliefs are just as absurd and illogical as Christianity.

You cannot see the difference because you don't even know what Baha'is believe, except that we believe in Messengers of God and God.

You employ the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern

1. X is true for A.
2. X is true for B.
3. Therefore, X is true for C, D, etc.

For example, if a person travels through a town for the first time and sees 10 people, all of them children, they may erroneously conclude that there are no adult residents in the town.

Faulty generalization - Wikipedia

So you assume the Baha'i Faith is no different from Christianity and that is based upon insufficient evidence. The religions are similar in certain ways but very different in other ways.

Well, I could make the argument that if I am going to find out the correct interpretation of something, then I should go to the people who are experts in that topic. If I want an opinion on plumbing, I go to a plumber. If I want a medical opinion, I go to a doctor. And when it comes to opinions on Christianity, then I go to Christians.

Which Christian are you going to go to, the Trinitarian or the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormon or the Unitarian?
Christians know about Christianity but they do not interpret the Bible the same way. If they did, there would not be so many sects of Christianity all with different "opinions" on the Bible verses. For example, all Christians do not believe that Jesus is God, and that is because Christians INTERPRET the Bible differently.

So what? Does not change the fact that you are motivated to find evidence that supports what you have already decided is correct.

What is your problem? I have been a Baha'i for over 50 years. Of course I believe in the evidence that supports what I believe. Otherwise I would not be a Baha'i. Why would I be looking at evidence that supports other religious beliefs unless I was interested in changing religions? Why would I be interested in changing religions when I have already looked at the evidence for the Baha'i Faith and determined it is true, over and over and over again. This was not a fly by night decision.

Oh rubbish. If someone tells you that they and Jack are one, you would take it to mean that their name was Jack, wouldn't you? I don't know of a single person who would conclude that they MUST be talking about their dad.

Give it up for lost. Jesus was not God. Did you even bother to look at the long posts I posted to samtonga43 yesterday tat proves that, or are you going to continue clinging to YOUR interpretation of one Bible verse? It si obvious that you have no interest in knowing the truth, al you want to do is deride me and all you care about is being right. Just like Trinitarians, you cannot admit you are wrong even when it is proven by the Bible that Jesus is not God.

And what would you think if someone told you that they and their bathroom mirror were one? You'd think they had some pretty whacky ideas, wouldn't you?

I did not say that the image in the mirror is the same as what reflects it. Jesus was a mirror image of God, but Jesus was not God.

It's funny that you expect me to believe that.

I do not expect you to believe that but if you did any research you would KNOW it is true, so you would not have to believe it. These are basic tenets of the Muslim faith, any Muslim will tell you they believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God and the greatest Messenger of God aside from Muhammad.

Yes you do cherry pick the Bible.

The instant you hold that some Bible passages and interpretations are true and others are false based solely on whether they support your own religious beliefs or not, you are cherry picking.

I wish you woukld stop contradicting me, it is very rude. I can for myself and I do not lie.

I do not hold any Bible verses as false, and I do not need any Bible verses to support my beliefs. Do Buddhists and Hindus need the Bible to support their beliefs? No, we each have OUR OWN religions with our own Founders. I need the Bible like I need a hole in the head.

Yes I have. You pick and choose what passages and what interpretations you take to be correct based solely on whether they support your own religious beliefs or not.

This is it, I am not going to listen to you speaking for me anymore. This is absolutely disrespectful. You do not listen to one thing I say, you just keep repeating YOUR opinions of me.

To show that your beliefs are just as illogical as Christianity.

Why waste your time like this? You are not going to "show" anything at all. Who do you think is even paying any attention? Maybe you are trying to show it to yourself so you can dismiss the Baha'i Faith as being "just like Christianity." But it isn't just like Christianity and you can't change that because that is reality and it is provable.

You do not even KNOW what the Baha'i Faith teaches, how can you know it is illogical? You cannot have an honest debate when you do not even know anything about what you are debating. All you have is a bias and a bone to pick.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you misunderstand.

I'm not disputing any of the objective facts.

I'm asking if your knowledge that God is literally real and literally sent Mr B to Earth to be his messenger is part of this objective knowing.

No, that is not something that can be known objectively.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible says that God is sprit so it cannot lives in bodily form

And since when do we take the Bible literally? Did God walk in the garden with Adam? Did he send fire from heaven for Elijah? Did he speak from heaven when Jesus was baptized?

During His dispensation, Jesus was once the head over every power and authority but not anymore.

So does that mean that for the dispensation of Moses, or Abraham, or Buddha, they were the heads over every power and authority? But just until the next guy came? And I think Buddha came after Moses, so he updated and replaced Judaism with new teachings from God? I don't think so, but what do you think?

The Bible needs to be understood in its entirety. Certain verses support other verses as verses complement each other. They are not contradictory. Jesus was not a divided person.

And who wrote the Bible? Did Moses write some of it? Then with the NT we all know that Jesus didn't write any of it. So ordinary people wrote it... not the manifestation. They very well could be divided. Oh, and Christians play that game of connecting verses. You know those verses that has a child being born unto us. And then they have verses that show how Satan fell from heaven. Yeah, you can make all kinds of connections. Like all those verses that "prove" that Jesus is God.

 

[Tiberius]

I believe God could not have made it more plain or simple.

Given that I can think of a way to make it clearer and simpler, either I can think of something God can't think of (in which case I'm smarter than God), or God is incapable of doing something (in which case why call him a God?).

 

[Trailblazer]

Given that I can think of a way to make it clearer and simpler, either I can think of something God can't think of (in which case I'm smarter than God), or God is incapable of doing something (in which case why call him a God?).

And you know your way would work, right? After all your way has been tested so it is tried and true.

 

[Tiberius]

I did not 'already decide' anything.
The Bible needs to be understood in its entirety. Certain verses support other verses as verses complement each other. They are not contradictory. Jesus was not a divided person.

Yes, you did. You've decided that the Bible needs to match your religious beliefs, which leads you to end up with a different interpretation than Christians.

What 'other verses' have you looked at to support your interpretation that John 10:30 means Jesus is God? If you haven't looked at any other verses this is cherry-picking.

Sorry but no.
"I and my Father are one" does not mean the same thing as "I and my Father became one."
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, NOT God. Do you understand the difference between a Father and a Son?

John 10 KJV

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father, even though the Father is in the Son.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

SamTonga already gave you a selection of such verses.

Of course, you came up with ways to dismiss them all. I'm not surprised. People of all faiths come up with all sorts of ways to dismiss other religions whenever they want to. You're no different.

I certainly CAN make the same claim. I believe it is false because there is no evidence to support it.

Ah! So for these crazy, out-there supernatural claims, you need EVIDENCE! And if there is no EVIDENCE, then you will reject the claim!

I'll remember that.

You are speaking for my motivations and you are wrong. The sooner you understand that the better, because there is no point having a discussion with someone who tells me what I think and insists that they know my motivations. Do I tell you what YOU are motivated by?

When I see you doing what I've seen all other religious people do, then it's clear what your motivations are.

I already KNOW what the truth is and the resurrection story is not going to change that. I would in it even if I was not a Baha'i, as it is completely absurd that a man rose from the dead, and it does not MATTER if Jesus rose from the dead

You KNOW the truth? As in, you KNOW it for a fact? Or is it just that you really REALLY have a strong opinion about it that you are convinced is true?

Not everything I believe is based upon faith, only some things, and I don't believe in ridiculous things that don't MATTER. Please tell me why it would matter if Jesus had risen from the dead. What difference would it make for anyone who lived back then or for people living now?

It would matter for you since it would mean your personal beliefs were wrong.

No, my beliefs and standards for judging what is valid evidence for beliefs are NOT inconsistent at all.

Sure they aren't.

So you assume the Baha'i Faith is no different from Christianity and that is based upon insufficient evidence. The religions are similar in certain ways but very different in other ways.

And there are still based on beliefs for which there is no actual evidence.

Which Christian are you going to go to, the Trinitarian or the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormon or the Unitarian?
Christians know about Christianity but they do not interpret the Bible the same way. If they did, there would not be so many sects of Christianity all with different "opinions" on the Bible verses. For example, all Christians do not believe that Jesus is God, and that is because Christians INTERPRET the Bible differently.

And that's why I conclude that ALL sects of Christianity are wrong.

You remember I'm an atheist, right?

What is your problem? I have been a Baha'i for over 50 years. Of course I believe in the evidence that supports what I believe. Otherwise I would not be a Baha'i. Why would I be looking at evidence that supports other religious beliefs unless I was interested in changing religions? Why would I be interested in changing religions when I have already looked at the evidence for the Baha'i Faith and determined it is true, over and over and over again. This was not a fly by night decision.

You believe the evidence that supports what you believe.

You do realise that doesn't make what you believe right, yes? It just means you exist in an echo chamber and surround yourself with only the stuff that tells you what you want to hear.

It's called "Confirmation bias."

You seem to love accusing me of committing logical fallacies, now I get to show you how you do it too. Well, not really, I've been pointing out your double standards for a while now, but here's another logical fallacy you're guilty of.

Give it up for lost. Jesus was not God. Did you even bother to look at the long posts I posted to samtonga43 yesterday tat proves that, or are you going to continue clinging to YOUR interpretation of one Bible verse? It si obvious that you have no interest in knowing the truth, al you want to do is deride me and all you care about is being right. Just like Trinitarians, you cannot admit you are wrong even when it is proven by the Bible that Jesus is not God.

Wow, such arrogance. You spout off your OPINION and then claim it's PROOF.

I did not say that the image in the mirror is the same as what reflects it. Jesus was a mirror image of God, but Jesus was not God.

So if the mirror is not one with what it reflects, why did Jesus claim to be one with his Father?

I do not expect you to believe that but if you did any research you would KNOW it is true, so you would not have to believe it. These are basic tenets of the Muslim faith, any Muslim will tell you they believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God and the greatest Messenger of God aside from Muhammad.

Yeah, I know that. Doesn't stop Muslims from being biased AGAINST Christian beliefs.

I wish you woukld stop contradicting me, it is very rude. I can for myself and I do not lie.

I'm pointing out what I see.

I do not hold any Bible verses as false, and I do not need any Bible verses to support my beliefs.

Perhaps you missed the word "INTERPRETATIONS" in there?

Do Buddhists and Hindus need the Bible to support their beliefs? No, we each have OUR OWN religions with our own Founders. I need the Bible like I need a hole in the head.

And yet how often have you brought up the Bible to support some claim about Baha'i faith? I even challenged you to NOT bring it up ever again, and you failed that challenge! It seems to me that you love bringing it up!

This is it, I am not going to listen to you speaking for me anymore. This is absolutely disrespectful. You do not listen to one thing I say, you just keep repeating YOUR opinions of me.

Like I said, I'm telling you what I see. Perhaps you should consider WHY I see your actions that way? And I'm not the only person who has made these claims either.

And it's a bit rich for you to cry that not listening and just repeating opinions is rude when you have done nothing but that to say why our interpretations of Bible passages are wrong when they disagree with your interpretations.

Why waste your time like this? You are not going to "show" anything at all. Who do you think is even paying any attention? Maybe you are trying to show it to yourself so you can dismiss the Baha'i Faith as being "just like Christianity." But it isn't just like Christianity and you can't change that because that is reality and it is provable.

You do not even KNOW what the Baha'i Faith teaches, how can you know it is illogical? You cannot have an honest debate when you do not even know anything about what you are debating. All you have is a bias and a bone to pick.

As I've already mentioned, I'm showing that your position is inconsistent. And I'm not arguing against Baha'i faith, I'm arguing against your claims.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is not something that can be known objectively.

And didn't you say that claims need EVIDENCE to support them? I told you I'd remember that little claim you made.

You dismissed the claim of Jesus' resurrection because there is no evidence to support them. Pleas tell me what OBJECTIVE evidence there is to support the claim that there really is a God who sent Mr B to Earth as His messenger.

 

[Tiberius]

@Trailblazer By the way, I'm still waiting for you to tell me if there are any other criteria that this person I mentioned needs to meet in order to be considered a messenger from God. If you want, you can refresh your memory about this person by reading THIS post. You gave a list of criteria in THIS post but also said those criteria were just a starting point. So far, this person has met all the criteria you have presented to be counted as a messenger from God. Do you have any further criteria you wish to apply, or are you willing to say that this person is a messenger from God?

 

[Tiberius]

And you know your way would work, right? After all your way has been tested so it is tried and true.

Why wouldn't it work?

Muffled said that God answers, but not everyone can hear. What is stopping God from making sure that everyone can hear?