Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

Will our friend @infrabenji kindly tell us as to what one understands from the natural word "evidence", please? Kindly don't quote from a lexicon, give us one's own concept of the natural word "evidence", please. Right?

Regards

FYI, I think our friend @infrabenji has left this thread but my friend @Nimos has arrived.

 

[Nimos]

FYI, I think our friend @infrabenji has left this thread but my friend @Nimos has arrived.

Yes, ill take over where he left off

 

[Trailblazer]

I can say exactly the same, but I would never say it is 'proof' or that I 'know' that I am right. This is because I reason logically.

I never said anything about proof, I do not need proof in order to know what I believe is true.
Reason logically? Religious 'beliefs' have nothing to do with logic.
You never say you know because you don't know, but I say I know because I do know.
How I know is not something you could ever understand, because that certitude was ordained by God.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

Of course it is illogical, Tb. Take some time to work out why it is illogical. If you still don't know, I'll tell you.

Religious beliefs are not subject to logic since they can never be proven true. There is nothing illogical about having a religious belief one knows is true. It is not my problem if that bothers you or some others on this forum. Maybe you should ask yourselves why it bothers you.

Believing something that cannot be proven as a fact is not illogical. All religious believers believe in a God that cannot be proven to exist since God cannot be proven to exist.

Do you want to know what is illogical? Expecting to have proof that God exists. There is no way that anyone can ever have proof that God exists unless God proves it to them, as happened in my case (as noted in that passage above).

Why do you think so many others 'know' that you are illogical?

They do not know that, they believe it. Who cares what they believe about me? Certainly not me. Nice people do not call other people illogical. Rather they might say what they think is illogical about what someone has said and explain why they think it is illogical.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just as everything the B.Man wrote may not be a true story.
Yes?
No?

Baha'u'llah did not write stories. He wrote what God revealed to Him, so everything He wrote was God's truth..

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, ill take over where he left off

Great! It is always nice to have another atheist aboard, especially a nice one like you.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you dismiss the claims based solely on whether they agree with your preconceived beliefs, and you do not judge them based on their own merit.

No, that is not what I said. Go back and look at what I said. What Baha'u'llah interpreted is the most accurate because Baha'u'llah is the Representative of God among men, Baha'u'llah is also the messiah who was prophesied by Daniel to unseal the Bible and explain its true meaning, as per Daniel 12.

I'm talking about the nature of reality. There is only one true nature of reality, and any position that disagrees with it is wrong. This same concept is perfectly able to be applied to religions despite your dislike of the idea.

I have no dislike of that idea, in fact it is a good idea. There is only one Reality and there is only one religion, the eternal religion of God, which is revealed in various chapters throughout the ages.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

 

[Trailblazer]

And thus not knowledge.

That all depends upon how you define knowledge.

Definition of knowledge
1a(1) : the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association
(2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique
b(1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something
(2) : the range of one's information or understanding answered to the best of my knowledge

Definition of KNOWLEDGE

 

[samtonga43]

Baha'u'llah did not write stories. He wrote what God revealed to Him, so everything He wrote was God's truth..

Only if God revealed it to him.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is not what I said. Go back and look at what I said. What Baha'u'llah interpreted is the most accurate because Baha'u'llah is the Representative of God among men, Baha'u'llah is also the messiah who was prophesied by Daniel to unseal the Bible and explain its true meaning, as per Daniel 12.

And Christians say the Bible is the most accurate, Muslims say the Koran is the most accurate... It means nothing, absolutely nothing, when a follower of a particular faith claims their holy text is the most accurate.

Also, you failed the Bible Challenge. I thought you said you didn't need the Bible to support Baha'i.

I have no dislike of that idea, in fact it is a good idea. There is only one Reality and there is only one religion, the eternal religion of God, which is revealed in various chapters throughout the ages.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

Right, then why this ludicrous insistence that we claim that ALL religions are true?

That's like trying to claim that all proposed explanations for gravity are real, when there's claims about magical fairies who are constantly pulling things down as one of the explanations, and another explanation is that the world is really on the inside of a sphere and that the spinning of the sphere is what keeps us pressed to the ground.

 

[Tiberius]

That all depends upon how you define knowledge.

Definition of knowledge
1a(1) : the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association
(2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique
b(1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something
(2) : the range of one's information or understanding answered to the best of my knowledge

Definition of KNOWLEDGE

I'd go with 1a(2), since our understanding of how reality works is indeed a scientific understanding. And thus religious belief doesn't come into it. When it comes to understanding how reality works, religious belief can NEVER provide any actual knowledge of any useful sort.

 

[Trailblazer]

And Christians say the Bible is the most accurate, Muslims say the Koran is the most accurate... It means nothing, absolutely nothing, when a follower of a particular faith claims their holy text is the most accurate.

I don't know what you mean by 'accurate' but certainly the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the most authentic and the Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible which is of unknown authorship. However, all of the Holy Books are equal in value because they are revelations from God.

Also, you failed the Bible Challenge. I thought you said you didn't need the Bible to support Baha'i.

I was not trying to 'support Baha'i' with the Bible, I was just trying to explain something, in response to what you said. You must realize that all the religions are connected so sometimes one has to refer to a previous religion to 'explain' (not support) their own religion. For example, Muslims often refer to the Bible and the Torah and Christians often refer to the Old Testament.

You said that I dismiss other interpretations of the Bible based solely on whether they agree with my beliefs, and that I do not judge them based on their own merit. In order to explain why what Baha'u'llah interpreted is the most accurate interpretation I needed to point out that He 'unsealed' the Bible, and I was not going to claim that without citing Daniel 12.

Right, then why this ludicrous insistence that we claim that ALL religions are true?

That's like trying to claim that all proposed explanations for gravity are real, when there's claims about magical fairies who are constantly pulling things down as one of the explanations, and another explanation is that the world is really on the inside of a sphere and that the spinning of the sphere is what keeps us pressed to the ground.

I say all religions are true because they are all true since they were all revealed by God. It is what happened after these religions were revealed that changed them such that much of the original truth was lost. That is why they "appear" to be different explanations for gravity.

Nevertheless, what was originally revealed was different just like chapters of a book are different and culminate in the last chapter. There is no last chapter to the Book of God, because more chapters will be revealed as long as humanity exists, but we are in the last chapter that has been revealed thus far, the chapter that contains the remedy that humanity needs in this age for the ills humanity is facing in this age. The earlier chapters (such as the Bible and the Qur'an) do not contain the remedy humanity needs in this age because they were not written for this age. It's that simple.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd go with 1a(2), since our understanding of how reality works is indeed a scientific understanding. And thus religious belief doesn't come into it. When it comes to understanding how reality works, religious belief can NEVER provide any actual knowledge of any useful sort.

If you are referring to physical reality you are correct. Scientific knowledge is necessary to understand and explain physical reality. Science is also necessary to and improve living conditions and address human needs in this physical world. However, science can NEVER provide any knowledge of God and science can NEVER provide any knowledge of spiritual reality; those are within the domain of religion.

 

[Tiberius]

I don't know what you mean by 'accurate' but certainly the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the most authentic and the Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible which is of unknown authorship. However, all of the Holy Books are equal in value because they are revelations from God.

How can they have different levels of authenticity and yet still be of equal value?

I was not trying to 'support Baha'i' with the Bible, I was just trying to explain something, in response to what you said. You must realize that all the religions are connected so sometimes one has to refer to a previous religion to 'explain' (not support) their own religion. For example, Muslims often refer to the Bible and the Torah and Christians often refer to the Old Testament.

The problem is that you assume that all religions must have elements of truth in them, and that is simply not the case. It is entirely possible for some particular religion to be absolute garbage.

You said that I dismiss other interpretations of the Bible based solely on whether they agree with my beliefs, and that I do not judge them based on their own merit. In order to explain why what Baha'u'llah interpreted is the most accurate interpretation I needed to point out that He 'unsealed' the Bible, and I was not going to claim that without citing Daniel 12.

Ah yes. Unseal the Bible. The book that was sealed to the end of time according to Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9.

I say all religions are true because they are all true since they were all revealed by God. It is what happened after these religions were revealed that changed them such that much of the original truth was lost. That is why they "appear" to be different explanations for gravity.

So if the original truth has been lost, how do you know that they were revealed by God?

I mean, couldn't we have a religion that is just a bunch of nonsense, but people say, "No, it only appears to be nonsense because it's been changed so much! To begin with, it wasn't nonsense at all!"

How would you tell the difference?

It's like if the gravity Fairy people were to say, "Yes, I know that gravity fairies seem silly, but that's only because the original idea has been changed and the original truth of the gravity fairies has been lost. Nonetheless, we must conclude that there is some element of truth to it!

Nevertheless, what was originally revealed was different just like chapters of a book are different and culminate in the last chapter. There is no last chapter to the Book of God, because more chapters will be revealed as long as humanity exists, but we are in the last chapter that has been revealed thus far, the chapter that contains the remedy that humanity needs in this age for the ills humanity is facing in this age. The earlier chapters (such as the Bible and the Qur'an) do not contain the remedy humanity needs in this age because they were not written for this age. It's that simple.

Yes, this age. Which is going to last for another 800 or so years. Given the sheer amount of change we have seen in the last 100 years, what makes you think a message from God that came 100 or so years ago is going to be relevant at all in 300 years, let alone for another 500 years after that?

 

[Tiberius]

If you are referring to physical reality you are correct. Scientific knowledge is necessary to understand and explain physical reality. Science is also necessary to and improve living conditions and address human needs in this physical world. However, science can NEVER provide any knowledge of God and science can NEVER provide any knowledge of spiritual reality; those are within the domain of religion.

Of course, the thing is this: We know the knowledge we have about the physical world is true because everyone gets the same results. When people measure the size of the moon, they all get the same results. You never get anyone saying that the moon is only a mile across, while other people say it's a million miles across.

But religion can't do this. Religion has given people all sorts of different explanations that don't agree with each other. This is EXACTLY what we'd expect if it was just people reaching conclusions based on their preconceived ideas and NOT what we'd expect if what they were finding out about was something that existed separately to them.

In short, religion doesn't give any reliable information at all, and so I say it's garbage as a method of finding out anything that is actually true.

 

[paarsurrey]

That's why atheist resemble religious fundamentalists. They are not practical people, they are dogmatic believers that cling to an unconvincing ideology.

I appreciate one's post. Remarkable !

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

How can they have different levels of authenticity and yet still be of equal value?

What I really meant is that they are of equal stature, of equal status, given they all originated from Messengers of God, although I believe that the more authentic scriptures are of more value since we can know exactly what was revealed by God to the Messenger, rather than having to trust scriptures that were written by men which were passed on by way of oral tradition.

The problem is that you assume that all religions must have elements of truth in them, and that is simply not the case. It is entirely possible for some particular religion to be absolute garbage.

That all depends upon what is defined as religion. There are many so-called religions but if they were not revealed by God through a Messenger they are not real religions of God, and they might be garbage.

Ah yes. Unseal the Bible. The book that was sealed to the end of time according to Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9.

That is a good point you made, as the Bible was sealed till the end of the age of prophecy, NOT till the end of time.

Daniel 12 explains why the Christians would misinterpret and thus misunderstand the Bible.

Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning. Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and none of them clearly understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. That is understandable because it was prophesied by Daniel that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it:

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Now, Christians continue to interpret the Bible the way it has always been interpreted...

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end of the age of prophecy, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. A day is a year according to the day-year principle, and the 2,300 years came in 1844 when the Bab declared His mission, and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. The math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before (knowledge shall be increased).

I am not saying that Christians did not understand anything in the Bible, I am saying that they did not fully understand the Bible... As Daniel said, we will know more in the future, in 2300 years:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So if the original truth has been lost, how do you know that they were revealed by God?

I mean, couldn't we have a religion that is just a bunch of nonsense, but people say, "No, it only appears to be nonsense because it's been changed so much! To begin with, it wasn't nonsense at all!"

How would you tell the difference?

It's like if the gravity Fairy people were to say, "Yes, I know that gravity fairies seem silly, but that's only because the original idea has been changed and the original truth of the gravity fairies has been lost. Nonetheless, we must conclude that there is some element of truth to it!

We know which religions were revealed by God because Baha'u'llah and His son Abdu'l-Baha identified the Messengers who were sent by God.

We can also identify a true Messenger and a true religion based upon the following set of criteria in bold.
You asked me before about additional criteria, and below is the most important criteria by which to judge a religion and a Messenger.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

Yes, this age. Which is going to last for another 800 or so years. Given the sheer amount of change we have seen in the last 100 years, what makes you think a message from God that came 100 or so years ago is going to be relevant at all in 300 years, let alone for another 500 years after that?

Do you know WHY we have seen so much change in the last 177 years? Baha'is believe it is because of the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who ushered in an entirely new age, the age of fulfillment, also referred to as the messianic age since Baha'u'llah was the promised messiah. That is why we have seen the changes we have seen, including advances in science, medicine, and in society, which has become more progressive during the last 100 years.

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah was ordained by God to address the needs of humanity for at least 1000 years (from 1852 AD). It could be longer than that, as nobody knows when the next Messenger will come. Most of humanity is not even ready for what has been revealed by Baha'u'llah, so why would we need another revelation from God? We have not even seen everything that Baha'u'llah wrote because only about 15% of the tablets of Baha'u'llah have thus far been translated into English, and many of the laws of Baha'u'llah have not been put into place since humanity is not yet ready to adhere to them.

We are only in the very beginning of this age and we have not seen anything compared to the changes that are yet to take place. Look around at what is going on in the world today. Everything is changing at an ever-increasing pace. Baha'is believe this is all because of the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

We live in the most remarkable of times. The transformation of the material conditions of humanity has a cause. Do we really believe that the human beings who came before us were incapable of what we see in the world today? Great civilizations have come before in history – yet none of them broke out of the same reality that has existed since the dawn of agriculture.

It is only in this time that humanity has passed into an entirely new reality. It has a cause. A cause larger than humanity itself.

In 1844, in Shiraz, the Bab, Baha’u’llah’s immediate forerunner, spoke these words:

The secret of the Day that is to come is now concealed. It can neither be divulged nor estimated. The newly born babe of that Day excels the wisest and most venerable men of this time, and the lowliest and most unlearned of that period shall surpass in understanding the most erudite and accomplished divines of this age.[1]

A short time before, on the other side of the planet on 24 May 1844, within a day of the Bab’s declaration of his mission, Samuel Morse, the inventor of the telegraph sent its first message from Washington to Baltimore. The message read as follows: What hath God Wrought? , citing a passage from the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course, the thing is this: We know the knowledge we have about the physical world is true because everyone gets the same results. When people measure the size of the moon, they all get the same results. You never get anyone saying that the moon is only a mile across, while other people say it's a million miles across.

But religion can't do this. Religion has given people all sorts of different explanations that don't agree with each other. This is EXACTLY what we'd expect if it was just people reaching conclusions based on their preconceived ideas and NOT what we'd expect if what they were finding out about was something that existed separately to them.

In short, religion doesn't give any reliable information at all, and so I say it's garbage as a method of finding out anything that is actually true.

You are right about what you said. Science gives consistent and predictable results and everyone gets the same results. The reason for this is because scientists are progressive and are generally on the same page working towards common goals, discovering new things, and science is constantly progressing over time.

The reason we don't see this happening with religion is because all the religions are on different pages working towards very very different goals, going in different directions. Moreover, religion cannot progress because religious adherents cannot move forward since they are entrenched in the past, following what was revealed by God thousands of years ago.

What humanity needs one religion that will work for everyone, one religion that everyone will adhere to and agree upon. Eventually there will be one common faith, but not for a very long time, because as you can see people cling to the older religions and believe they have best religion and the only true religion, so they are unwilling to relinquish their religion for a new religion.

 

[Tiberius]

You are right about what you said. Science gives consistent and predictable results and everyone gets the same results. The reason for this is because scientists are progressive and are generally on the same page working towards common goals, discovering new things, and science is constantly progressing over time.

The reason we don't see this happening with religion is because all the religions are on different pages working towards very very different goals, going in different directions. Moreover, religion cannot progress because religious adherents cannot move forward since they are entrenched in the past, following what was revealed by God thousands of years ago.

What humanity needs one religion that will work for everyone, one religion that everyone will adhere to and agree upon. Eventually there will be one common faith, but not for a very long time, because as you can see people cling to the older religions and believe they have best religion and the only true religion, so they are unwilling to relinquish their religion for a new religion.

I gotta disagree with you here. The reason scientists get consistent results isn't because they are trying to prove the same thing or support the same claims. It's because they are measuring something that exists independently of themselves, something that is objectively real. Even when different scientists have very different beliefs, they still come to the same conclusions. Even flat earthers find the evidence that the Earth is spherical. So if believers of different faiths were really getting information about the same God, then it would likewise all point at the same conclusion. And yet it doesn't. The simplest explanation for this is that none of it is real and there is no God, and their conclusions are based on their preconceived beliefs and ideals.

 

[CG Didymus]

In order to explain why what Baha'u'llah interpreted is the most accurate interpretation I needed to point out that He 'unsealed' the Bible, and I was not going to claim that without citing Daniel 12.

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end of the age of prophecy, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. A day is a year according to the day-year principle, and the 2,300 years came in 1844 when the Bab declared His mission, and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. The math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

So when did this happen?

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.​

It is from whenever the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination set up that the 2300 evenings and mornings and the 1290 days starts. Yet, Abdul Baha starts It with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Why does that make sense?

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you know WHY we have seen so much change in the last 177 years? Baha'is believe it is because of the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who ushered in an entirely new age, the age of fulfillment, also referred to as the messianic age since Baha'u'llah was the promised messiah. That is why we have seen the changes we have seen, including advances in science, medicine, and in society, which has become more progressive during the last 100 years.

And how are those "advances" working out? Things like plastic, the gas engine, and nuclear fission. Gee, thanks God. Any chance of giving people something that doesn't pollute the environment or can be made into bombs?