Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

And how do we know that what we read actually came from God?

First, you would have to verify for yourself that Baha'u'llah was actually a Messenger of God, BEFORE you would believe that anything He wrote was revealed by God.

 

[Tiberius]

First, you would have to verify for yourself that Baha'u'llah was actually a Messenger of God, BEFORE you would believe that anything He wrote was revealed by God.

Before I could verify that Mr B was a messenger of God, I would have to verify that there actually IS a God. And without verifying that, any claims from Baha'i or any other faith are meaningless.

Could you show that God exists without relying on any claims from religious beliefs?

 

[Trailblazer]

Before I could verify that Mr B was a messenger of God, I would have to verify that there actually IS a God. And without verifying that, any claims from Baha'i or any other faith are meaningless.

Could you show that God exists without relying on any claims from religious beliefs?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You cannot verify that God exists before believing that the Messenger was sent by God because the Messenger is the only evidence of God's existence.

So the answer is no, I cannot show that God exists without relying on any religious claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

I gotta disagree with you here. The reason scientists get consistent results isn't because they are trying to prove the same thing or support the same claims. It's because they are measuring something that exists independently of themselves, something that is objectively real. Even when different scientists have very different beliefs, they still come to the same conclusions. Even flat earthers find the evidence that the Earth is spherical. So if believers of different faiths were really getting information about the same God, then it would likewise all point at the same conclusion. And yet it doesn't. The simplest explanation for this is that none of it is real and there is no God, and their conclusions are based on their preconceived beliefs and ideals.

I gotta disagree with you here. There is no reason why God would reveal the SAME information to believers of different religions because the primary reason that God sends a new Messenger is to reveal NEW information.

Humanity's needs differ in every age, so God reveals NEW information in every age in order to meet humanity's changing needs.

Baha'u'llah clearly explained why God reveals different religions in different ages and it is perfectly logical.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings, p. 80

 

[Trailblazer]

So when did this happen?

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.​

It is from whenever the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination set up that the 2300 evenings and mornings and the 1290 days starts. Yet, Abdul Baha starts It with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Why does that make sense?

Sorry, I am not going around that block again. The Bible can be used to try to prove anything anyone wants to try to prove, so that proves nothing.

 

[Trailblazer]

And how are those "advances" working out? Things like plastic, the gas engine, and nuclear fission. Gee, thanks God. Any chance of giving people something that doesn't pollute the environment or can be made into bombs?

To blame God for what humans do with what they were given by God is illogical.

 

[Trailblazer]

So the whole Bible, including the Christian NT, all got sealed up? Not just Daniel's book? Problem is... Lots of the Bible predates Daniel. And the NT came long after. So as soon as the NT was written, it was already "sealed"? Hmmm? That's a little strange don't you think?

I did not say that the whole Bible was sealed up or that nobody understood anything that was written. Daniel said that knowledge would be increased which means that people already has some knowledge before the unsealing at 2300 years.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[We Never Know]

And how are those "advances" working out? Things like plastic, the gas engine, and nuclear fission. Gee, thanks God. Any chance of giving people something that doesn't pollute the environment or can be made into bombs?

If someone believes in a god, then evidently he did.... Wind, solar, water... However we humans demand and want more so we made what we wanted, no matter the cost or destruction.

 

[Tiberius]

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You cannot verify that God exists before believing that the Messenger was sent by God because the Messenger is the only evidence of God's existence.

So the answer is no, I cannot show that God exists without relying on any religious claims.

The trouble with being required to believe before you get the evidence is that people generally are eager to accept the flimsiest evidence for that which they want to believe and are reluctant to accept the strongest evidence for that which they DON'T want to believe.

So your method really biases a person towards reinforcing their belief. Just another way of cherry picking.

 

[Trailblazer]

Given that you've said that Baha'i is meant to be the proper message for the next 800 years or so, how are we to prevent the same corruption from getting into that?

Good question.

the Covenant of Baha'u'llah will prevent the corruption that happened to previous religions.
The reason that the Covenant will prevent that from happening is because the Covenant assures that all Bahais will remain on the same page. No other religion ever had a written Covenant and that is why al the older religions split into thousands of sects after the Messenger died.

This is a big subject I can explain later if you are interested.

On what basis do you claim that a religion needs to come from a messenger from God in order to be legitimate?

If a religion did not come from God through a Messenger then it would be a man-made religion. What reason would you have to believe in a religion that men made up?

Once again you are being free and easy with your interpretations. There's nothing there that indicates "the end of the time" means "to the end of the time of prophecy."

No, there isn't anything in the Bible that says that, one would only know that it means the end of the time of prophecy if they referred to the Baha'i Writings.

Many Christians believe that 'time of the end' means end of the world but other Christians believe that it means end of an age. They just don't know what age was coming to an end or how that age came to an end. Only Baha'is know that.

That's based on the assumption that Baha'i faith is correct.

No, not at all. That passage refers to criteria for all the religions and all the Messengers.

Yah huh. We got computers because God sent Mr B. Okay then.

No, we got computers and other scientific and technological advances because the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah released the Holy Spirit into the world which affected all of humanity, stimulating human progress.

 

[Tiberius]

I gotta disagree with you here. There is no reason why God would reveal the SAME information to believers of different religions because the primary reason that God sends a new Messenger is to reveal NEW information.

Humanity's needs differ in every age, so God reveals NEW information in every age in order to meet humanity's changing needs.

And by your logic, since there won't be a new messenger until at least 2800 or something, the information that was given to us in 1800 whatever is still going to be valid in 2800. Do you really think that is going to be the case, given how fast our society is changing now?

Baha'u'llah clearly explained why God reveals different religions in different ages and it is perfectly logical.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

The requirements of the time of Mr B are different to the requirements of our society today, and they will no doubt be different to the requirements of our society in 200, 500 or 800 years. And yet you have claimed that those times will all be in the one age and thus will not require any further information.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213

Why not? Splints still work well for broken bones. They worked 2000 years ago and they work just as well today.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings, p. 80

This contradicts your last passage.

Here it says that treatments in our modern age are going to be the same as what was used in previous ages. And yet earlier you posted a passage which claimed that the treatments of one age will not be required by subsequent ages.

 

[Tiberius]

Sorry, I am not going around that block again. The Bible can be used to try to prove anything anyone wants to try to prove, so that proves nothing.

I'll remember this the next time you cite the Bible as support for your faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

If they were religions revealed by God then they were true. If not, then they were religions of man.

Do Baha'is say Adam, Noah and Abraham were manifestations? If so, what religions did they reveal? In India, they have several religions that we've learned, maybe not you, that fall into the general category of Hinduism. Those religions predated Krishna. Have you read the Krishna story? Is it true? Was it revealed by Krishna or written down and told by someone else? I'm sure many religions were made up by men. It was there guess at what spiritual truth was. Or they wanted to make rules for society to follow so they made up Gods and prophets to make the rules have a Godly authority.

Regarding the resurrection, that is what it says in the story, that Jesus came back to life, but that does not mean it is a true story. However, if you believe it is true you should become a Christian and call it a day. Why even give the Baha'i Faith one more thought?

Yes, that is what it says. You and the Baha'i Faith don't believe it, so that makes it a fictional story. Yet, you make part of the story literally true... even the virgin birth Baha'is make literally true.

But I am sorry you cannot see the big picture and what the Baha'i Faith was revealed for and how it is going to change the world eventually. All you can do is look at Christianity and other older religions that have seen their day and no longer serve any purpose for humanity. All they do is hold humanity back and keep humanity from evolving and moving into the new age. Of course you can't see the end in the beginning, just as nobody could have seen how Jesus or Muhammad would change the world in the first centuries. You have to have some imagination to imagine what is not yet a reality.

And this "big" picture just happens to be what you believe is true. None of the major religions has gone totally away. They haven't "seen" their day. Prophecies can very well be fulfilled that makes Judaism true or that makes Christianity true, but you are blind to that. Blinded by the belief that your religion is true. Great, and they call me blind also, because I don't believe in their religions either.

I think the prophecies have the Messiah or Jesus coming after the bad stuff, all the tribulations. The one where it says there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. But there still is lots of wars and rumors of wars. Tell me again how Baha'is explain away that?

There is no way Jesus ever said he was coming back to earth, that is not in the New Testament at all. What about these verses do you not understand? And no, they are not out of context, they perfectly FIT in with the other verses in those chapters.

Yet, Christians explain them away just like Baha'is explain away the verses that contradict their beliefs. I'm okay if you believe that what it says in Acts is false... that it is made up BS. But, it does say it. Jesus showed himself alive and it says this "same" Jesus is coming back. I posted it down below. Read it again... That is if you've ever read it. I

Oh, and to pull a "Trailblazer" type of tactic... Jesus never "said" anything that we know of for sure. All we have is people saying what they remember he supposedly said. How reliable is that? How "revealed" is that? And, Baha'is make a lot of it fictional by calling it "symbolic". So what don't I understand about writings that even Baha'is say that we don't know how "authentic" they are. But it does say things that contradicts the Baha'i Faith. And I do know that Baha'is find ways to make those verses becoming virtually meaningless. But verses that say Jesus is not God or not coming back, Baha'is make those verses very literal and of the utmost importance.

So sure, the Baha'i Faith has some nice teachings, but I don't believe everything they say. Just like I don't believe everything in any religion. But you the "True Believer" has to believe everything that your religion says.

Acts 1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God...
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

 

[CG Didymus]

I gotta disagree with you here. There is no reason why God would reveal the SAME information to believers of different religions because the primary reason that God sends a new Messenger is to reveal NEW information.

I thought Baha'is believe the "spiritual" teachings don't change... only the "social" laws change? But that is not what we see in the beliefs of the different religions. They all have different beliefs about God and spiritual things. And some have lots of "laws" and rules for society. Read the Laws of Moses... Do you think God "revealed" those or that the spiritual leaders of the community made them up? There are lots of laws on doing different animal sacrifices. Was that "new" information that the previous religions needed to hear? No, these things were very specific to the Hebrew people. Did God "reveal" a law that a girl that is found not to be a virgin be stoned to death? Or did the religious leaders of the community make that up?

Then, what new social laws did Jesus bring? It ended up that Christianity dumped most all of the Laws of Moses. They even dumped the Sabbath Law out of the Ten Commandments. It seems God does reveal new information, though... It is because the old information is wrong. Which Baha'is would agree with. But when was the information of the previous religion ever right?

And by your logic, since there won't be a new messenger until at least 2800 or something, the information that was given to us in 1800 whatever is still going to be valid in 2800. Do you really think that is going to be the case, given how fast our society is changing now?

As if anybody is going to follow all the laws perfectly anyway. Especially the ones about no sex until married. And then only with that person. Oh, and then the ones that don't allow homosexual sex. And who's going to enforce these laws of "God"? Unfortunately, it is religious extremists that force others to obey. But anyway, right now, Baha'is are on the "honor" system. Of course, they are all following all the laws perfectly... right.

 

[CG Didymus]

First, you would have to verify for yourself that Baha'u'llah was actually a Messenger of God, BEFORE you would believe that anything He wrote was revealed by God.

Again, Christians do the same thing with Jesus. Jesus is who he says he is, because the Bible says so. The Bible is true, because of what it says. They go through all the reasons why we can trust the Bible. Then go through all the things it says about Jesus. As you know, by the time they are done... Jesus is God. And they can "prove" it all.

Oh, and going back to that "revealed" religion thing... You know that person that claimed to be the Mahdi. I believe he was a contemporary to Baha'u'llah. He made the claim and "revealed" teachings, but you don't believe him? So there are people you and the Baha'i Faith think are false prophets.

 

[Tiberius]

Good question.

the Covenant of Baha'u'llah will prevent the corruption that happened to previous religions.
The reason that the Covenant will prevent that from happening is because the Covenant assures that all Bahais will remain on the same page. No other religion ever had a written Covenant and that is why al the older religions split into thousands of sects after the Messenger died.

This is a big subject I can explain later if you are interested.

Yeah, I don't buy it. Why didn't God do that before? This seems like just another way for Baha'is to say, "Our religion is right and others are wrong."

If a religion did not come from God through a Messenger then it would be a man-made religion. What reason would you have to believe in a religion that men made up?

Given that you can't even prove that Mr B actually spoke to God at all, I see no reason to think that Baha'i isn't just another man-made religion.

No, there isn't anything in the Bible that says that, one would only know that it means the end of the time of prophecy if they referred to the Baha'i Writings.

Ah, so once again the Bahai faith takes something, creates an interpretation that suits its purposes and then says, "This interpretation suits our purposes, therefore it must be the right interpretation and therefore our religion is correct!"

I don't find that convincing in the slightest degree.

As you've said, "The Bible can be used to try to prove anything anyone wants to try to prove, so that proves nothing." Following this advice, your interpretation of that passage means nothing.

Many Christians believe that 'time of the end' means end of the world but other Christians believe that it means end of an age. They just don't know what age was coming to an end or how that age came to an end. Only Baha'is know that.

Again, The Bible can be used to try to prove anything anyone wants to try to prove, so that proves nothing.

No, not at all. That passage refers to criteria for all the religions and all the Messengers.

No, that's not at all what I said.

Us knowing "which religions were revealed by God because Baha'u'llah and His son Abdu'l-Baha identified the Messengers who were sent by God" only works if the Bahai faith is correct.

No, we got computers and other scientific and technological advances because the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah released the Holy Spirit into the world which affected all of humanity, stimulating human progress.

Prove it.

 

[Trailblazer]

The trouble with being required to believe before you get the evidence is that people generally are eager to accept the flimsiest evidence for that which they want to believe and are reluctant to accept the strongest evidence for that which they DON'T want to believe.

So your method really biases a person towards reinforcing their belief. Just another way of cherry picking.

I am not suggesting you believe in a Messenger before you get evidence for the Messenger that is sufficient for you to believe.

I really don't know why you think that people start out wanting to have a certain belief, BEFORE they have looked at any evidence and conversely, why they would be reluctant to accept the strongest evidence for that which they DON'T want to believe. What examples do you have of people doing this?

 

[Trailblazer]

And by your logic, since there won't be a new messenger until at least 2800 or something, the information that was given to us in 1800 whatever is still going to be valid in 2800. Do you really think that is going to be the case, given how fast our society is changing now?

Yes, I think it is going to be the case because what Baha'u'llah revealed was very progressive, so most people living in today's society are not yet ready to accept the teachings and principles and Laws He revealed 150 years ago, let alone put them into practice. I believe that over the course of time people will slowly start accepting them and practicing them, as more people join the Baha'i Faith..

The requirements of the time of Mr B are different to the requirements of our society today, and they will no doubt be different to the requirements of our society in 200, 500 or 800 years. And yet you have claimed that those times will all be in the one age and thus will not require any further information.

What Baha'u'llah wrote in the 19th century was not written just for the 19th century. In fact, the people living back then were not even ready to hear and accept these new social teachings and new Laws, and that is one reason the Muslims persecuted Baha'u'llah and banished and exiled Him from place to place. For example, equal rights and education for women is not something that Islam teaches.

Baha'u'llah's Writings were written for the age we are living in and will be applicable throughout this age, until the next Messenger appears. Of course He knew exactly what humanity would need in this age, He got His knowledge from God who is all-knowing. If you don' think that Baha'u'llah had the ability to look into the future, look at everything He predicted that all came to pass.

As I said before, much of what Baha'u'llah wrote has not yet been translated into English. Although we are assured that we have the Writings that we need now to start building the new world order, more Writings will be translated as time goes on.

There is important to note something I have not mentioned. The Universal House of Justice (UHJ) who will provide further guidance to the Baha'is throughout the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah and if something is not covered in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, they have the authority vested in them by Baha'u'llah to legislate upon whatever arises.

The Universal House of Justice (Persian: بیت‌العدل اعظم‎) is the supreme governing institution of the Bahá'í Faith. It is a legislative institution with the authority to supplement and apply the laws of Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, and exercises a judicial function as the highest appellate institution in the Bahá'í administration. The institution was defined in the writings of Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'u'lláh's successor, and was officially established in 1963 as the culmination of the Ten Year Crusade, an international Bahá'í teaching plan.[1]

Its nine members are elected every five years from the male membership in good standing of the world community by an electoral college consisting of all the members of each Bahá'í National Spiritual Assembly throughout the world. The Seat of the Universal House of Justice and its members reside in Haifa, Israel, on the slope of Mount Carmel.[1]

While empowered to legislate on matters that are not explicitly stated in the Baha'i holy writings, the Universal House of Justice has, since its inception, limited its exercise of this function. Instead it has generally provided guidance to Bahá'ís around the world through letters and messages.[2] The books and documents published by the Universal House of Justice are considered authoritative and its legislative decisions are considered infallible by Bahá'ís. [3][4] The institution has also collected and published extracts from the writings of the Báb, Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá.[2]

Seat of the Universal House of Justice

Responsibilities

The Universal House of Justice today guides the growth and development of the global Bahá'í community. The general functions of the Universal Houses of Justice, as stated by Bahá'u'lláh include to promulgate the cause of God, to preserve the law, to administer social affairs, to educate the people's souls, to guarantee the education of children, to make the world prosperous, and to care of the elderly and the ill who are in poverty.[9] According to its constitution, the Universal House of Justice itself states that "The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá'u'lláh which, together with the interpretations and expositions of `Abdu'l-Bahá and of Shoghi Effendi ... constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation.

Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia

Why not? Splints still work well for broken bones. They worked 2000 years ago and they work just as well today.

I have no idea what you are talking about, what spirits, what bones?

This contradicts your last passage.

Here it says that treatments in our modern age are going to be the same as what was used in previous ages. And yet earlier you posted a passage which claimed that the treatments of one age will not be required by subsequent ages.

Those two passages are not contradictory, but I can understand how they might have seemed that way.
Allow me to explain what they mean.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

In the passage above Baha'u'llah is saying that what we need in the present age is not the same as what we will need in a future age, and that is why God will be sending another Messenger in the future (a process that will continue as long as humanity exists.) In the last sentence He said that we need to be concerned with the requirements of age in which we are living.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

In the passage above, Baha'u'llah is saying that the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day can never be identical to the treatment that was prescribed in the past ages because the ills of humanity differ from age to age.

The Messenger can be likened to a Divine Physician who prescribes the remedy that humanity needs in the age in which He appears. For example, Jesus focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. That was the remedy people needed 2000 years ago and during the Dispensation of Jesus.

The remedy humanity needs in this age is what Baha'u'llah revealed for this age, the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. During this age all nations and kindreds will be gathered together and religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. Eventually all men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, I don't buy it. Why didn't God do that before? This seems like just another way for Baha'is to say, "Our religion is right and others are wrong."

There is a good explanation as to why God did not do that before, and the reason is because humanity was not ready for a written Covenant in the past because people living back then were not spiritually evolved enough to adhere to such a Covenant. Everything God reveals is based upon what humanity is ready for, and that is why Jesus said:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Humanity could not bear to hear the "many things" that Baha'u'llah revealed until the present age and that is way Jesus did not reveal those things back in His Day. Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of truth that Jesus was referring to in those verses and He did everything Jesus said He would do in the verses, including glorifying Jesus.

Given that you can't even prove that Mr B actually spoke to God at all, I see no reason to think that Baha'i isn't just another man-made religion.

How do you think anyone could prove such a thing? However, we can prove it to ourselves and then we believe it.
For starters a Messenger must meet all those criteria I gave you, and then we go from there and look at Him further, before we would be willing to believe God spoke to Him.

Ah, so once again the Bahai faith takes something, creates an interpretation that suits its purposes and then says, "This interpretation suits our purposes, therefore it must be the right interpretation and therefore our religion is correct!"

I don't find that convincing in the slightest degree.

As you've said, "The Bible can be used to try to prove anything anyone wants to try to prove, so that proves nothing." Following this advice, your interpretation of that passage means nothing.

Go ahead and try to come up with another interpretation, see if it makes sense and try to support it. I welcome any and all interpretations.

You need to get the idea out of your head that the Baha'i Faith is looking for interpretations of Bible verses that suit its purposes. Baha'is do not need the Bible to show who Baha'u'llah is because we have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah that shows who He was. However, since the Bible predicted the coming of Baha'u'llah, certain verses refer to Him.

I am not trying to prove anything, you need to get that idea out of your head. I am just explaining what "I believe" the verses mean.

Again, The Bible can be used to try to prove anything anyone wants to try to prove, so that proves nothing.

That's right, and that is why I am not trying to use the Bible to prove anything.

No, that's not at all what I said.

Us knowing "which religions were revealed by God because Baha'u'llah and His son Abdu'l-Baha identified the Messengers who were sent by God" only works if the Bahai faith is correct.

Good catch. If the Baha'i Faith is not true, all bets are off, and that leaves the door for just about any belief or no belief at all.

Prove it.

Nobody can prove such a thing, except to themselves.

 

[Tiberius]

I am not suggesting you believe in a Messenger before you get evidence for the Messenger that is sufficient for you to believe.

I really don't know why you think that people start out wanting to have a certain belief, BEFORE they have looked at any evidence and conversely, why they would be reluctant to accept the strongest evidence for that which they DON'T want to believe. What examples do you have of people doing this?

You said, "You cannot verify that God exists before believing that the Messenger was sent by God because the Messenger is the only evidence of God's existence." (post 1283)

Now you say I shouldn't believe the messenger until I have evidence the messenger is from God.

Do you not see the problem?

I shouldn't believe the messenger until there is evidence he is from God, but I can only get evidence he is from God by believing the messenger. See how this just goes in a loop?