Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning. Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and none of them clearly understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. That is understandable because it was prophesied by Daniel that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it:

So the whole Bible, including the Christian NT, all got sealed up? Not just Daniel's book? Problem is... Lots of the Bible predates Daniel. And the NT came long after. So as soon as the NT was written, it was already "sealed"? Hmmm? That's a little strange don't you think?

 

[joelr]

The 'demi god myth' came much earlier. Jacob in Egypt spoke to his son Juda and
stated there would one day be a Hebrew nation with a monarchy and the law, and
it would end when the Messiah came - and this Messiah would be believed upon of
the nations.
Not sure how Mark shoe horned this into his narrative. If he did then who is Jacob
speaking of?
And Job said the Redeemer is alive in his day and would one day stand on the
earth. Who was HE speaking of?
And Isaiah said this Messianic figure would be despised and rejected, and after
his cruel death he would see the victory he had won. Who was Isaiah writing of?
And David spoke of this Lord being crucified. And Daniel said the enemy that
would destroy Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish nation would also 'cut off'
the Messiah, who would die for his people. Who are all these people speaking of?
Perhaps someone yet to come?

The Persian religion had predicted a world savior messiah and that dates back to 1600B.C. Scholar Mary Boyce confirmed this in her years of studying in Iran.
Savior demigods who were the sons of daughter of a sky God is also a Hellenistic creation. All of the religions in that region adapted Hellenistic ideas into their religions. Judaism was the last but during the 2nd temple period they were occupied by the Persians and later the Greeks. During this time they blended these myths with their Jewish beliefs.

"Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)
This led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure."

Hellenistic religion

Concepts of messiah figures were around during OT times and taken from other cultures. By the time Mark wrote his story new myths had been created. But Mark didn't need outside sources, we really understand what material he was using. Much of it is taken from Paul's letters. In Paul Jesus is talking to Paul about future CHristians and saying to tell them he breaks this bread and so on...
In Mark it's changed to an actual supper with people and a real event on Earth. There are verbatim uses from Psalms, Kings and other sources he used to create a new Hellenized Judaism with their own savior. Yes he used hints in the OT to write the new character as well.

 

[joelr]

Just this one for now... the driving out of the pagans
One of the big issues that effected the relationship between the Jew and his
God in the Old Testament was the REFUSAL of the Jews to fully drive the
Canaanites out of the land. In fact, until the Babylonian captivity, archaelogists
are often struggling to tell Jew from Canaanite graves due to the presence of
idols to Baal, Asherarh, Gad, El, Dagon etc..Jews worshipped these. It was
warned in the early times that if Israel did not drive out the pagan then they
themselves would become pagan. And hence the stories of the Captivity, or
the Assyrian exile etc..

Those are myths. The Israelites came out of Canaanite society. That is how archeology presents the history now. Everything in the Bible is some pagan myth.
Genesis uses both Mesopotamian creation stories, Job has a Babylonian older version, Noah is a direct copy of Gilamesh flood story.
2nd temple Judaism is when all the Persian myths were added to the OT...
The unique historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism,[5][6][7][8][9] messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[12]


then savior gods, heaven, souls who go to heaven, all Hellenistic beliefs. It's all pagan.

Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

Christianity

 

[PruePhillip]

Those are myths. The Israelites came out of Canaanite society. That is how archeology presents the history now. Everything in the Bible is some pagan myth.
Genesis uses both Mesopotamian creation stories, Job has a Babylonian older version, Noah is a direct copy of Gilamesh flood story.
2nd temple Judaism is when all the Persian myths were added to the OT...
The unique historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism,[5][6][7][8][9] messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[12]


then savior gods, heaven, souls who go to heaven, all Hellenistic beliefs. It's all pagan.

Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

Christianity

So in this bleak, nihilist view of scripture there is no such thing as a Jew?
No House of David?
No Isaiah?
No Ezekiel?
No Jesus?
No Jerusalem temple?
Just copy and paste pagan beliefs?

You ok with the Carthagian General Hannibal ??
Socrates ?

 

[Tiberius]

What I really meant is that they are of equal stature, of equal status, given they all originated from Messengers of God, although I believe that the more authentic scriptures are of more value since we can know exactly what was revealed by God to the Messenger, rather than having to trust scriptures that were written by men which were passed on by way of oral tradition.

Given that you've said that Baha'i is meant to be the proper message for the next 800 years or so, how are we to prevent the same corruption from getting into that?

That all depends upon what is defined as religion. There are many so-called religions but if they were not revealed by God through a Messenger they are not real religions of God, and they might be garbage.

On what basis do you claim that a religion needs to come from a messenger from God in order to be legitimate?

That is a good point you made, as the Bible was sealed till the end of the age of prophecy, NOT till the end of time.

Daniel 12 explains why the Christians would misinterpret and thus misunderstand the Bible.

Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning. Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and none of them clearly understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. That is understandable because it was prophesied by Daniel that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it:

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Now, Christians continue to interpret the Bible the way it has always been interpreted...

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end of the age of prophecy, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. A day is a year according to the day-year principle, and the 2,300 years came in 1844 when the Bab declared His mission, and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. The math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before (knowledge shall be increased).

I am not saying that Christians did not understand anything in the Bible, I am saying that they did not fully understand the Bible... As Daniel said, we will know more in the future, in 2300 years:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Once again you are being free and easy with your interpretations. There's nothing there that indicates "the end of the time" means "to the end of the time of prophecy."

We know which religions were revealed by God because Baha'u'llah and His son Abdu'l-Baha identified the Messengers who were sent by God.

We can also identify a true Messenger and a true religion based upon the following set of criteria in bold.
You asked me before about additional criteria, and below is the most important criteria by which to judge a religion and a Messenger.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

That's based on the assumption that Baha'i faith is correct.

Do you know WHY we have seen so much change in the last 177 years? Baha'is believe it is because of the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who ushered in an entirely new age, the age of fulfillment, also referred to as the messianic age since Baha'u'llah was the promised messiah. That is why we have seen the changes we have seen, including advances in science, medicine, and in society, which has become more progressive during the last 100 years.

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah was ordained by God to address the needs of humanity for at least 1000 years (from 1852 AD). It could be longer than that, as nobody knows when the next Messenger will come. Most of humanity is not even ready for what has been revealed by Baha'u'llah, so why would we need another revelation from God? We have not even seen everything that Baha'u'llah wrote because only about 15% of the tablets of Baha'u'llah have thus far been translated into English, and many of the laws of Baha'u'llah have not been put into place since humanity is not yet ready to adhere to them.

We are only in the very beginning of this age and we have not seen anything compared to the changes that are yet to take place. Look around at what is going on in the world today. Everything is changing at an ever-increasing pace. Baha'is believe this is all because of the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

We live in the most remarkable of times. The transformation of the material conditions of humanity has a cause. Do we really believe that the human beings who came before us were incapable of what we see in the world today? Great civilizations have come before in history – yet none of them broke out of the same reality that has existed since the dawn of agriculture.

It is only in this time that humanity has passed into an entirely new reality. It has a cause. A cause larger than humanity itself.

In 1844, in Shiraz, the Bab, Baha’u’llah’s immediate forerunner, spoke these words:

The secret of the Day that is to come is now concealed. It can neither be divulged nor estimated. The newly born babe of that Day excels the wisest and most venerable men of this time, and the lowliest and most unlearned of that period shall surpass in understanding the most erudite and accomplished divines of this age.[1]

A short time before, on the other side of the planet on 24 May 1844, within a day of the Bab’s declaration of his mission, Samuel Morse, the inventor of the telegraph sent its first message from Washington to Baltimore. The message read as follows: What hath God Wrought? , citing a passage from the Bible.

Yah huh. We got computers because God sent Mr B. Okay then.

 

[samtonga43]

... we can know exactly what was revealed by God to the Messenger

How can 'we' know?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can 'we' know?

By reading.

 

[paarsurrey]

I've seen a few struggling with what the "burden of proof" actually is. The burden of proof, as I understand it, lies on the person making the claim, be it positive or negative.

If a theist claims God exists and expects an atheist to agree, the burden of proof lies with the theist.
If an atheist claims there is no God and expects the theist to agree, the burden of proof lies with the atheist.

I appreciate one's post.
Regards

 

[Muffled]

So the whole Bible, including the Christian NT, all got sealed up? Not just Daniel's book? Problem is... Lots of the Bible predates Daniel. And the NT came long after. So as soon as the NT was written, it was already "sealed"? Hmmm? That's a little strange don't you think?

Not only that but along comes the Reformation and the Apocrypha is gone.

 

[Muffled]

By reading.

I do not believe that works. I know because God tells me.

 

[Muffled]

Baha'u'llah did not write stories. He wrote what God revealed to Him, so everything He wrote was God's truth..

I believe the question is revealed by whom. Certainly not by God.

 

[samtonga43]

By reading.

How can we know that what we are reading is truth?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can we know that what we are reading is truth?

The context was this: "although I believe that the more authentic scriptures are of more value since we can know exactly what was revealed by God to the Messenger." (#1256)

I meant "we" collectively; i,e. people who read the scriptures have the 'potential' to know the truth from God because they can read exactly what was revealed by God to the Messenger.
But that does not mean that 'everyone' who reads the scriptures will know they are the truth.

 

[samtonga43]

I meant "we" collectively; i,e. people who read the scriptures have the 'potential' to know the truth from God because they can read exactly what was revealed by God to the Messenger.
But that does not mean that 'everyone' who reads the scriptures will know they are the truth.

So only those who believe that the B.Man is a messenger from God will know that what the B.Man wrote down (or got someone else to write down) is the truth from God.

Is this correct?

 

[samtonga43]

I never said anything about proof, I do not need proof in order to know what I believe is true.

Are you now denying you said the following?
I said I would definitely know if I was wrong after being a Baha'i for 50 years, and since I have not determined I am wrong after 50 years, I know I am not wrong.Do you even know why I said that and what I meant by it? I meant that I have not uncovered any evidence that proves me wrong in over 50 years, all I have uncovered is evidence that proves me right

 

[Tiberius]

By reading.

And how do we know that what we read actually came from God?

 

[Trailblazer]

So only those who believe that the B.Man is a messenger from God will know that what the B.Man wrote down (or got someone else to write down) is the truth from God.

Is this correct?

Correct.

 

[samtonga43]

Correct.

And you believe he was a messenger because he said he was?

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you now denying you said the following?
I said I would definitely know if I was wrong after being a Baha'i for 50 years, and since I have not determined I am wrong after 50 years, I know I am not wrong.Do you even know why I said that and what I meant by it? I meant that I have not uncovered any evidence that proves me wrong in over 50 years, all I have uncovered is evidence that proves me right

No, I am not denying that I said that because it is right there in black and white.

But that is not the same as saying that I need proof in order to know that what I believe is true.
I was talking about evidence, not proof.

I said: "I have not uncovered any evidence that proves me wrong in over 50 years, all I have uncovered is evidence that proves me right."

Evidence helps to prove that something is or is not true,
Proof establishes that something is true.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

 

[Trailblazer]

And you believe he was a messenger because he said he was?

Why do you keep asking me that? I have answered that before.
I said no, of course I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger 'because He said He was a Messenger.'

More than once I have told you why I believe Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

1. Because of the evidence.

2. Because God guided me, enabling me to recognize Baha'ullah.