Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Tiberius]

I asked: "Why is it indistinguishable from no God if God does not force people to believe?"
So you expect God to force you to believe? Why would God want to do that given we are allowed to choose everything else we do?

He doesn't need to force us.

When you go outside on a sunny day and look up, do you get upset about being forced to believe the sky is blue?

That was not only a good answer, it was a logical answer.

"Because the omnipotent/omniscient God decided that was the way it would be, and God is in charge, you aren’t."

You just don't LIKE the answer because it means that God knows more than you know and you are not going to get what you want. But that is the way it is if God exists.

That was a terrible answer. It can be used to justify anything.

Why did little Billy get cancer and die horribly? Because that's the way God wanted it to be. Why did you lose your job after you were late because the bus came early and you missed it? Because that's the way God wanted it to be.
It explains nothing and is a cheap cop out from actually having to answer an inconvenient question. It's not good, and it's certainly NOT logical.

I believe it, I don't claim it. So you don't believe you have any intelligence or free will to choose?

You've already made it clear that you consider your beliefs to be an accurate representation of the real world, so stop with the "I'm not claiming that it's this way," stuff. I don't buy it and I doubt anyone else here does.

 

[Tiberius]

I never said you should. How we verify it is another matter.

Believing something really hard is not verifying it.

 

[Tiberius]

Preaching that all people are one? Not check.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

And let's not forget that the Bible teaches were are all children of Adam.

And finally, if you really believe that the Bible does not say that all people are one, why does John Fisher (a pastor, who most likely has a lot more religious education than you) say otherwise? Saturday Sermon: We are all created equal in God's eyes

Preaching that there is one God? Not check

Christians most certainly DO believe there is only one God. BBC - Religions - Christianity: The basics of Christian beliefs

Christianity has not done anything but divide humanity -- us and them -- for 2000 years.

I'd say all religions have, but many Christians would be happy to tell you how Christianity has brought people together.

No, what you said is the biggest fattest straw man I have ever heard in my entire life.

The last one is a Baha'i specific claim designed to INCLUDE everyone and not eliminate anyone.
It is the Christians who are trying to ELIMINATE everyone who is not a Christian.

And it is the Baha'is who claim that everyone who is not a Baha'i has got it wrong.

Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of God and the Oneness of all Messengers.

Not check for Christianity since Christians divide humanity into us and them, Christians believe that the Bible God is the only God, and Christians believe that Jesus is the only way and there are no Messengers of God.

And it is the Baha'is who claim that their belief is the only way to get it right. You are just as guilty as the rest of them.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[CG Didymus]

We can say anything we want to say and we say it because we believe what is in the NT, just not the resurrection story.

And why don't you believe the resurrection story? Because it is scientifically, ridiculously impossible? But then the gospels say Jesus brought two people back to life and that people came out of their graves in Jerusalem, so you probably don't believe that. He magically healed lepers and crippled people and brought sight to the blind. Totally unscientific. So you probably don't believe that. Then he turned water into wine. How do you do that? Unscientific, can't be true. Then walking on water, and getting Peter to take a few steps too? Impossible. Then being born without getting the necessary genetic stuff from a human father? No, couldn't have happened. Yeah, if you're going to say God didn't raise his son Jesus back to life, why believe any of these other things too?

 

[CG Didymus]

You have absolutely no right to tell Baha'is what they believe in, but you keep doing it anyway.

Sorry, I didn't know I didn't have the right. Yeah, can't wait for God's people, the Baha'is control the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Book of Mormon is not considered an authentic revealed scripture.

No kidding. Here I thought Jesus had come to the Americas and preached to the people here. I think they are supposed to be the lost tribes of Israel or something. Are you sure it's not "authentic"? Yet, there's probably more Mormons than Baha'is in the world.

 

[Tiberius]

In my opinion none of these could have happened without a God since God was required to send a Messenger and ONLY a Messenger could have done these things.... but YMMV.

How can my mileage vary if what you say is an objectively true fact about the real world?

No, that is completely illogical!

How much Stephen King wrote is completely irrelevant because he never claimed to be a Messenger of God.

If fast writing by itself is not an indication, then why did you bring it up?

Moreover, Stephen King did not write fast like Baha'u'llah. There is no evidence of that whereas there were eyewitnesses who saw how fast Baha'ullah wrote:

"according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred."
God Passes By, p. 138

There are about 77,500 words in the Koran.

If what Mr B said in a day (taken as a period of 24 hours, he would have needed to be speaking at a rate of 54 words a minute. That's almost one word a second. And that's assuming that he was doing it non stop 24 hours a day, with no breaks for eating or sleeping (since it is hard to speak while doing those things). Such a claim is hard to believe, so I'd like more than a "Well, we have this guy who makes the claim" in order to support it.

That is completely irrelevant. Lots of people do not claim to be a Messenger of God nor do they MEET the other criteria for a Messenger of God.

the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án!

No, nobody ever did that except Baha'u'llah.

No, it is CLAIMED that he did it. Can you show that the claim is an accurate one? Or is this a case of, "I want to believe it, so I do believe it."

 

[Tiberius]

And you missed my point.

If two people looked at the history of the Baha'i Faith both people would agree that a real man existed and His name was Baha'u'llah. (This incontrovertible because it is a known fact that can be found in the Encyclopedia)

And I'm not arguing that he existed, am I?

However, you would have one person saying, "Baha'u'llah was just a man," and another person saying, "No, Baha'u'llah was a man who was a Messenger of God.

My point was that people have different subjective opinions about objective facts regarding the real world.

And what do you want? Are you happy with having a position that is just subjective? Or do you want to get as close to the objective truth as possible?

 

[CG Didymus]

Simple, because they never taught about the one true God and then messed up later.
Baha'is do not believe those were ever true religions since they were not revealed by a true Messenger of God.

And that's in the Baha'i writings that many people and cultures believed in false religions and false Gods that they made up themselves? Yeah, I believe that.

 

[Tiberius]

Harry James Potter is a fictional character and the titular protagonist in J. K. Rowling's series of eponymous novels. The majority of the books' plot covers seven years in the life of the orphan Harry, who, on his eleventh birthday, learns he is a wizard. Wikipedia

So? You think Harry Potter is fictional just because Wikipedia says he is? You discount people who claim that God is fictional, so I'm going to discount those who say Harry Potter is fictional.

No, I never said that anything I believe is true because it cannot be proven false. That is idiotic because there are many tings that cannot be proven false, but that does not mean they are true. The bodily resurrection of Jesus is a case in point.

Then why did you use an argument that says essentially that?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well, not like we believe the stories, but in the Bible God sends prophets to warn people of his soon to come judgement against them. In one city the people repented and God spared them. So there was always a "listen to me or else" part of the story in the Bible. And, since God did follow through and destroyed people, it would give people a big incentive to believe and follow this all powerful, wrathful God. So that's kind of forcing people to obey. But then again, we don't take those stories as being literally true.

That's right.

So you only quoted the last sentence. So "that's right" means you don't believe God did the things that the Bible says he did? I keep telling you that, but you don't believe me. You and many Baha'is really don't believe in the Bible. Oh, of course I mean literally. It's okay to believe in it as a work of fiction.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's working for those that embrace it CG, as to what will now happen? Well from what I have read to date, there have been non stop warnings of the consequences we face, to now know that change will only be accepted after great catastrophic events.

All the best CG, the best thing we can do is be a Loving active Member of our community and be there, if we survive, to help pick up the pieces and offer the foundation of a strong new world order for the remnants of humanity to consider.

Regards Tony

But, like I've said over and over, the Book of Revelation has the catastrophic events happen before Christ returns.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, it is CLAIMED that he did it. Can you show that the claim is an accurate one? Or is this a case of, "I want to believe it, so I do believe it."

It is easy for people not to look for their own selves on this topic, but yes history has recorded the times when this was applicable to the Bab and Baha'u'llah. It is only recent history, so it is fair and just to assume it's accuracy. At the same time we have to appreciate that Islam was doing all it could to silence these events. That is their shame and really a great loss for all humanity.

Here are a few of eye witness accounts, but there are many.

3 x Eyewitness Accounts

This was Mirza Aqa Jan, who later became Baha’u’llah’s scribe, detailed one experience which took place in Karbila, Iraq, while Baha’u’llah, reciting revelatory verses, paced at night on the roof of a house:

"Methinks, with every step He took and every word He uttered thousands of oceans of light surged before my face, and thousands of worlds of incomparable splendor were unveiled to my eyes, and thousands of suns blazed their light upon me!… Every time He approached me He … would say: “… This Cause will assuredly be made manifest …” – Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 116.

Now Mirza Haydar Ali who became a preeminent early Baha’i, recalled:

"The verses of God were being revealed and the words streamed forth as in a copious rain. Methought the door, the wall, the carpet, the ceiling, the floor and the air were all perfumed and illumined … To which worlds I was transported and in what state I was, no one who has not experienced such as this can ever know. – The Revelation of Baha’u’llah (volume one), p. 29.

Tarazu’llah Samandari, another preeminent Baha’i who lived from 1875 to 1968, described how these words were written:

"The Holy Word revealed from the heaven of the Will of the All-Merciful first descends upon the pure and radiant heart of the Manifestation of God and then is spoken by Him… I had the great privilege of being present on two occasions when Tablets were being revealed. The holy words were flowing from His lips as He paced up and down the room, and His amanuensis [scribe] was recording them … – The Revelation of Baha’u’llah (volume one), p. 36-37.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Since the spiritual teachings of all religions are essentially the same, all believers of the revealed religions believe in spiritual reality. We just view it a little differently but that is no reason to be divided.

No, the original message is in the scriptures of those religions, as close as we can come to knowing what the Messengers of those religions said or taught.

And what are those spiritual teachings that are the same in all the religions? And we all know the variations of love thy neighbor, so what else you got?

Oh, so we have the original message of each religion... What is it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But, like I've said over and over, the Book of Revelation has the catastrophic events happen before Christ returns.

I have also offerd it is your choice as to how to interpret the Bible, if one does not choose to accept what Baha'u'llah has offered. Also that is what Baha'u'llah said it would take before the world does see him, calamities and an event that will cause the linbs of makind to quake.

The Jews still await the Messiah, yet people still use the argument that is not what the OT offers etc.

Maybe one needs to consider it in a different way?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

A more important question to ask yourself is what you are missing by not recognizing Baha'u'llah as a Messenger of God.
"Being Bahais" and participating as part of the group is secondary to recognizing Baha'u'llah.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

Through independent investigation I've come to doubt many things about the Baha'i Faith. I doubt there was a literal Adam or Noah, maybe even Abraham. But Baha'is make them all manifestations. As if they "revealed" some new religion? They all came out of Judaism. Then Hinduism, who has many avatars, the Baha'is only mention Krishna. Too many unanswered questions and things left hanging.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But, like I've said over and over, the Book of Revelation has the catastrophic events happen before Christ returns.

These are many doctrines built from various understandings of scripture, and amongst those doctrines there is both evidence for a pre-tribulation event and evidence for a post-tribulation event, with 1000 year reign noted.

As I have offered, it is all about our chosen frame of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Fifty years ago Baha'is were saying that soon there will be "entry by troops". What happened?

Whether the Baha'i Faith is growing or not is totally unrelated to whether it is the truth from God or not.

They tried to get more members. How well did it work? How many new Baha'is has your community had in the last couple of years? How many inactive members do you have in your community? Unless you've had a lot of new members and most all of them are active and happy, then the Baha'i community is still suffering from the same problems it had fifty years ago. It's hard to get people to sign a declaration card, and when they do, it's hard to keep them from dropping out.

 

[Tiberius]

No, it does not prove that you are missing out. You might be missing out or not and that is for you to decide upon.
It is your choice if you want to reject it and lose the reward you could have had by believing.

And that is like if I told you, "Are you sure you want to miss out on your Hogwarts letter by not believing in Harry Potter?"

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

Much like lots of quotes from other religions that believers in them present to support their beliefs.

As I just said in my last post that is not my argument at all.

Sure seems like it is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They tried to get more members. How well did it work? How many new Baha'is has your community had in the last couple of years? How many inactive members do you have in your community? Unless you've had a lot of new members and most all of them are active and happy, then the Baha'i community is still suffering from the same problems it had fifty years ago. It's hard to get people to sign a declaration card, and when they do, it's hard to keep them from dropping out.

This is how it has always unfolded CG. Yet in this age, it is destined to go Global, and it already has really. Now people do have their choice.

Baha'u'llah offered in the Kitab-i-Iqan,

".... Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face—the face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book....."

What else can Baha'u'llah offer, He did everything he could, without forcibly making people believe, if it is not their choice.

As Baha'i we continue to offer it in that light.

Regards Tony