Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

If we are Baha'is we know what will happen eventually.

“The day is approaching when the intervening clouds will have been completely dissipated, when the light of the words, “All honor belongeth unto God and unto them that love Him,” will have appeared, as manifest as the sun, above the horizon of the Will of the Almighty…….” Gleanings, p. 306

Well, there's the proof. How far off is that day? How long has it been approaching? And what is going to cause those intervening clouds to go away? And what ever that is, why didn't those clouds dissipate a long time ago? Or did God want to make humankind suffer a little longer? A few more wars... a few more hurricanes and earthquakes... a few more pandemics... As if when those nasty clouds go away, everything will be perfect. Like no more wars and no more diseases and no more disasters? Or, those things will still happen, but we will all love each other and help each other and what? Praise God for them?

 

[CG Didymus]

Because he has told me that numerous times. How else could I know?

I said I like a lot of things about the Baha'i Faith but there's also lots of things they teach I don't agree with. I never use the "F" word... or at least not that "F" word.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So there's "girl" spirits? Much better than having some guy archangel come talk to me. I wonder how cute she was? Heck, I'd listen to her.
But really, where did she come from? Is she from some Islamic tradition?

She was sent by Bahaollah's Allah. And this is how Bahaollah described her:

"Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden — the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord — suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful."
Síyáh-Chál - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

How many posts do Baha'is get asking for the evidence of what they say? What they are given they don't see as being evidence, so it is rejected as being insufficient.

I, myself, like the prophecies of the different religions. What I'm given by the Baha'is is all that convincing. I'm not a religious scholar, I work in construction, and I can poke holes in many of the Baha'is interpretations of "fulfilled" prophecies.

Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions

Yes, and when have any religion that has a bunch of laws, supposedly from God, ever been successful at getting its people to obey them?

 

[CG Didymus]

As I have offered before CG, I see the Bible Prophecy is not in Chronological order, this stands to reason, as it is a collection of stories. As mentioned to you before, God has always sent the Messengers, before the calamities and warned the people, can you see that is the Case? If so, is it logical that God has warned us in the mid 1800's of what we now face because of what our hands and minds have produced?

Have you looked at how Persia was in that time, if you do, your question will be answered.

Interestingly God sends the Messenger in the place that it is most needed, not because they are the most deserving. Also God knows this, so that is why it is veiled in Prophecy.

That is also why America was chosen to be given priority of Faith in the West, America was founded on the greatest intentions, but at the same time it was in the greatest danger of disunity built in a rise of Materialism and gender and race inequality.

Regards Tony

And how do you know it's not in chronological order? Not that's it true, but supposedly an angel tells this guy John what is going to happen. But he puts things out of order? I'm not so sure, because it has an angel do something and then it says that second angel did something. So it sounds like there is an order. But whatever. Either way the poop looks like it's just about ready to hit the fan.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is the key, we must look at ourselves for the change. That is also the greatest proof of the Messenger, they are the first to offer the word in their lives. As Jesus said if you want to enter the Kingdom, pick up the cross and follow me. The first step, is actually taking the first step toward that required change.

Regards Tony

Sure, but it seems hard for even Baha'is here on the forum to be the ones that bring harmony and understanding and respect to the people of the different religions. How's it been for you? Getting any easier?

Oh, and that quote about the cross... Jesus hadn't carried the cross yet.

 

[CG Didymus]

These are many doctrines built from various understandings of scripture, and amongst those doctrines there is both evidence for a pre-tribulation event and evidence for a post-tribulation event, with 1000 year reign noted.

As I have offered, it is all about our chosen frame of reference.

Regards Tony

Okay, tell me how you interpret it.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is how it has always unfolded CG. Yet in this age, it is destined to go Global, and it already has really. Now people do have their choice.

Baha'u'llah offered in the Kitab-i-Iqan,

".... Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face—the face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book....."

What else can Baha'u'llah offer, He did everything he could, without forcibly making people believe, if it is not their choice.

As Baha'i we continue to offer it in that light.

Regards Tony

But it is obvious that it will take a catastrophe. With some religious movements it took war. Joshua went into the promised land and killed lots of the people there. And then there's Constantine with the Christians. So it's kind of like people need to be forced into a new religion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sure, but it seems hard for even Baha'is here on the forum to be the ones that bring harmony and understanding and respect to the people of the different religions. How's it been for you? Getting any easier?

Oh, and that quote about the cross... Jesus hadn't carried the cross yet.

Yes but he predicted his death.

That is the point being made. Jesus was put to death, most likely to have been crucifixion. That did not Kill Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, tell me how you interpret it.

I do not need to Interpret it CG, Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment for me, thus the Prophecy fits to what has happened, the Kitab-i-Iqan was offerd to explain how God sends the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

She was sent by Bahaollah's Allah. And this is how Bahaollah described her:

"Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden — the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord — suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful."
Síyáh-Chál - Wikipedia

Well, I haven't seen her in my dreams, but there's been a couple of maidens that come pretty close. But I'm not sure God sent them to me.

So Mirza Husayn-‘Ali didn't know he was the chosen one until this mysterious spirit lady appeared to him? So did he ever see or speak to God directly? Or, was it an angel or something? 'Cause if not, how did he know these spirit being talking to him were from God?

 

[Tiberius]

It is easy for people not to look for their own selves on this topic, but yes history has recorded the times when this was applicable to the Bab and Baha'u'llah. It is only recent history, so it is fair and just to assume it's accuracy. At the same time we have to appreciate that Islam was doing all it could to silence these events. That is their shame and really a great loss for all humanity.

Here are a few of eye witness accounts, but there are many.

3 x Eyewitness Accounts

This was Mirza Aqa Jan, who later became Baha’u’llah’s scribe, detailed one experience which took place in Karbila, Iraq, while Baha’u’llah, reciting revelatory verses, paced at night on the roof of a house:

"Methinks, with every step He took and every word He uttered thousands of oceans of light surged before my face, and thousands of worlds of incomparable splendor were unveiled to my eyes, and thousands of suns blazed their light upon me!… Every time He approached me He … would say: “… This Cause will assuredly be made manifest …” – Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 116.

Now Mirza Haydar Ali who became a preeminent early Baha’i, recalled:

"The verses of God were being revealed and the words streamed forth as in a copious rain. Methought the door, the wall, the carpet, the ceiling, the floor and the air were all perfumed and illumined … To which worlds I was transported and in what state I was, no one who has not experienced such as this can ever know. – The Revelation of Baha’u’llah (volume one), p. 29.

Tarazu’llah Samandari, another preeminent Baha’i who lived from 1875 to 1968, described how these words were written:

"The Holy Word revealed from the heaven of the Will of the All-Merciful first descends upon the pure and radiant heart of the Manifestation of God and then is spoken by Him… I had the great privilege of being present on two occasions when Tablets were being revealed. The holy words were flowing from His lips as He paced up and down the room, and His amanuensis [scribe] was recording them … – The Revelation of Baha’u’llah (volume one), p. 36-37.

Regards Tony

People have spoken lots without being messengers from God. You have not shown that Mr B's claim to be a messenger from God is accurate. You have not shown anything that a person who is not a messenger from God could not also have done.

 

[CG Didymus]

there is both evidence for a pre-tribulation event and evidence for a post-tribulation event, with 1000 year reign noted.

Okay, what is that "evidence".

I do not need to Interpret it CG, Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment for me, thus the Prophecy fits to what has happened, the Kitab-i-Iqan was offerd to explain how God sends the Messengers.

Regards Tony

Okay, the prophecy fits. Which prophecy?

 

[night912]

I believe it, I don't claim it. So you don't believe you have any intelligence or free will to choose?

A belief can also be a claim depending on the context of the conversation. In this case, the context dictates that you made a claim.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

People have spoken lots without being messengers from God. You have not shown that Mr B's claim to be a messenger from God is accurate. You have not shown anything that a person who is not a messenger from God could not also have done.

Good, then that is that.

Great, all the best, stay happy, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, what is that "evidence".

Okay, the prophecy fits. Which prophecy?

Been there CG.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not as if the person never sinned or Jesus paid the penalty for them. The New Testament never taught inherited original sin, either. That doctrine was started by Augustus in the early 5th century. The Orthodox Christians didn't agree with that, so they don't believe in inherited original sin today. I just learned that recently.

The sin of Adam is inherited by all human beings. Already in his pre-Pelagian writings, Augustine taught that Original Sin is transmitted to his descendants by concupiscence,[161] which he regarded as the passion of both soul and body,[j] making humanity a massa damnata (mass of perdition, condemned crowd) and much enfeebling, though not destroying, the freedom of the will.[162] Although earlier Christian authors taught the elements of physical death, moral weakness, and a sin propensity within original sin, Augustine was the first to add the concept of inherited guilt (reatus) from Adam whereby an infant was eternally damned at birth.

Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia

I don't remember the details, but this is where the Christians I knew got the idea that we inherited a sin nature from Adam...

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ...​

 

[Trailblazer]

Through independent investigation I've come to doubt many things about the Baha'i Faith.

So doubt them. You will probably continue to doubt them till the day you die. I cannot say what will happen after that, only God knows.

 

[CG Didymus]

the Book of Revelation has the catastrophic events happen before Christ returns.

These are many doctrines built from various understandings of scripture, and amongst those doctrines there is both evidence for a pre-tribulation event and evidence for a post-tribulation event, with 1000 year reign noted.

Okay, what is that "evidence".

Okay, the prophecy fits. Which prophecy?

Been there CG.

Okay, so you think that "Christ", Baha'u'llah, came pre-tribulation. And because he was rejected the world will then go through the tribulation or something like that? But you already talked about this before and don't want to say it again? Hmmm? So you can't just say that I get this from Revelation such and such? Oh well.

 

[Trailblazer]

They tried to get more members. How well did it work? How many new Baha'is has your community had in the last couple of years? How many inactive members do you have in your community? Unless you've had a lot of new members and most all of them are active and happy, then the Baha'i community is still suffering from the same problems it had fifty years ago. It's hard to get people to sign a declaration card, and when they do, it's hard to keep them from dropping out.

Whether the Baha'i Faith is growing or not is totally unrelated to whether it is the truth from God or not.
Whether "other people" believe in the Baha'i Faith or not.is not something we will be held accountable to God for when we die. We will only be held accountable as to what we believed.

“……. I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143