Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

Oh, I'm using it to mean that I'll listen to what you got, but don't expect me to agree with you.

Why would I expect that?

And do Baha'is have eternal hellfire with worms eating your flesh and little demons stabbing you with pitchforks?

No, but we have our own version of hell and it ain't pretty. The fire of hell is distance from God. You might not suffer from that in this world because there will always be something else you can grab for, but those material things won't exist in the spiritual world, so all we will have to make us happy is nearness to God. Hell is to become a victim to self and passion and sink in their depths.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[Tiberius]

Good, then that is that.

Great, all the best, stay happy, Regards Tony

Funny how no one ever has to say this about science and other things that we can show are objectively true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Funny how no one ever has to say this about science and other things that we can show are objectively true.

I see all truth is relative in this material world, science also. What science shows us today, changes as more discoveries are made.

Our minds are so small, creation has no beginning and no end and is intelligent design.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

So as I see we are now facing the consequences of another rejected Messenger, the better question CG is to ask why people have not embraced such a logical message of our Oneness as humanity and that we actually only do have One God.
Of course, all that is IMHO. (It is up to all others to consider if Baha'u'llah has warned us)

I do not know why God keeps on sending messengers repeatedly even after people reject them. It only ends in sprouting of more religions, and therefore, more conflicts. It seems as is Satan is doing this and not any God. There are differences among people which cannot be papered out. So, I conclude that the message of unity among humans and universal love itself is illogical. It disregards the reality. All people do not agree to your premise that there is only one God.
And when nothing works, these prophets/son/messengers/manifestations stoop to warning and threatening us with apocalypse, as if all people will take their threats seriously. People are smarter than that and see through the strategy.

Our minds are so small, creation has no beginning and no end and is intelligent design.

That is not the current scientific belief.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And when nothing works, the prophets/son/messengers/manifestations stoop to warning and threatening us with apocalypse, as if all people will take their threats seriously.

A guide can only guide and tell you what will happen, if one strays from the path.

If we choose not to consider the guide has given good advice, or think we can do a better job, and then stray from the path and face those consequences, then the choice was ours and there is no other to blame.

Regards Tony

 

[samtonga43]

I do know and there is nothing you can do about what I know.

Are you really saying that you KNOW that there is nobody who ever wrote as much as rapidly as Baha'u'llah?
If you are, I must tell you that your credibility is dwindling rapidly.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can my mileage vary if what you say is an objectively true fact about the real world?

Because how we perceive objective facts is subjective.

If fast writing by itself is not an indication, then why did you bring it up?

It is part of the evidence.

There are about 77,500 words in the Koran.

If what Mr B said in a day (taken as a period of 24 hours, he would have needed to be speaking at a rate of 54 words a minute. That's almost one word a second. And that's assuming that he was doing it non stop 24 hours a day, with no breaks for eating or sleeping (since it is hard to speak while doing those things). Such a claim is hard to believe, so I'd like more than a "Well, we have this guy who makes the claim" in order to support it.

What do you expect to get, other than an account from people who witnessed it?

No, it is CLAIMED that he did it. Can you show that the claim is an accurate one? Or is this a case of, "I want to believe it, so I do believe it."

How could I show that now? All we have are first hand accounts. I already believed in Baha'u'llah long before I ever read about it. That was just like icing on the cake.

 

[samtonga43]

I do have evidence.

You said:
"How polite is it for people to keep asking me for evidence I don't have"

 

[Trailblazer]

And what do you want? Are you happy with having a position that is just subjective? Or do you want to get as close to the objective truth as possible?

I have objective facts and I interpret them is subjective. How you interpret the same facts is also subjective.
Maybe you need to go back and read what I wrote:

However, you would have one person saying, "Baha'u'llah was just a man," and another person saying, "No, Baha'u'llah was a man who was a Messenger of God.

My point was that people have different subjective opinions about objective facts regarding the real world.

 

[samtonga43]

Because how we perceive objective facts is subjective.

Can you give us an example of a subjective perception of an objective fact?

 

[Trailblazer]

So? You think Harry Potter is fictional just because Wikipedia says he is? You discount people who claim that God is fictional, so I'm going to discount those who say Harry Potter is fictional.

It is known that Harry Potter is a fictional character, not just because Wikipedia says that.
Now you are just playing games now because you know there is no real person called Harry Potter, as portrayed in the novel.

The difference is that it is not known that God is fictional.
You can discount anything you want to discount.

Then why did you use an argument that says essentially that?

That is a straw man. I don't use any such argument..

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is part of the evidence.

I bet if Bahaollah could write or speak (as you know computers can speak in any language and tone) on religious topics as fast as a computer can.
Computers Can Compose Music… But Can They Write Scripture? - Data in the Strata

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjgw6bXsOfyAhWK93MBHXqAC1IQFnoECBMQAQ&url=https://techxplore.com/news/2020-09-ai-jesus-bible-inspired-verse.html&usg=AOvVaw14ySlKe2chUXzbyLaayA88

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&
ved=2ahUKEwjgw6bXsOfyAhWK93MBHXqAC1IQFnoECBIQAQ&url=https://venturebeat.com/2017/10/02/an-ai-god-will-emerge-by-2042-and-write-its-own-bible-will-you-worship-it/&usg=AOvVaw0MqJvgMFEnPltoJv1c6JgA

"Here is a sample I made on my computer–just to show you what it could look like when it’s all filled out. I couldn’t seem to capture a good enough image of the one I filled out by hand. This is just to give you an idea of what it could look like."

"It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it."
Scripture Writing Made Simple - The Modern Mary

All from the first page of a Google search for Computers writing scriptures. computer writing scripture. - Google Search

It is something like writing a love song, just a few words are used regularly and the rest is rearrangement.

The difference is that it is not known that God is fictional.

If there is no evidence that a pumpkin ever turned into a stage-coach, why do you believe in Cinderella?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you give us an example of a subjective perception of an objective fact?

The facts about Baha'u'llah are perceived differently. You might think the facts surrounding what He did on His mission are insignificant but Baha'is believe they were very significant. The same facts with different viewers lead to different viewpoints.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I hardly ever get replies from Trailblazer other than my posts being marked as informative.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that is like if I told you, "Are you sure you want to miss out on your Hogwarts letter by not believing in Harry Potter?"

I would ask so what?

Much like lots of quotes from other religions that believers in them present to support their beliefs.

So what?

Sure seems like it is.

Nope.

 

[Trailblazer]

I hardly ever get replies from Trailblazer other than my posts are marked as informative.

That is not true. I reply when there is something I want to say. I just did not have anything to say to that till I read it again, and then I responded. .

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you really saying that you KNOW that there is nobody who ever wrote as much as rapidly as Baha'u'llah?
If you are, I must tell you that your credibility is dwindling rapidly.

Go ahead, find somebody.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said:
"How polite is it for people to keep asking me for evidence I don't have"

What's your point?

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is no evidence that a pumpkin ever turned into a stage-coach, why do you believe in Cinderella?

I don't, but I believe in God because there is evidence that indicates *to me* that God exists.
The same evidence is not going to indicate that God exists to everyone because we all interpret the same evidence differently.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The fire of hell is distance from God. You might not suffer from that in this world because there will always be something else you can grab for, but those material things won't exist in the spiritual world, so all we will have to make us happy is nearness to God.

I do not believe in any life after death. That is for zombies and vampires. Being a strong atheist, I am far away from any God. But I am in no way inconvenienced by that.
That kind of spiritual world will be very hard for atheists, since we are accustomed to material things. I wish you happiness in your nearness with Allah without any material things. I think at least you would not be required to cook or wash dishes. The meals will will flash out of nowhere and heavenly maidens will take care of the washing.

 

[Tiberius]

I see all truth is relative in this material world, science also. What science shows us today, changes as more discoveries are made.

Our minds are so small, creation has no beginning and no end and is intelligent design.

Regards Tony

How can truth be relative if the real world exists independently to us? If there is any kind of real world, then truth is not relative, it is absolute.