ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[leahrachelle]

Because they're not willingly taking their own life. They're trying to get an abortion, and have a normal life. Besides, you're missing the point. You're now making a distinction between lives. You're saying that some lives are more important to you than others. That contradicts your pro-life stance.
No, I am not. They are willingly taking their own life. It doesn't matter that their reason for doing what they are doing isn't killing themself - they are still willingly taking their own life.
And there is a huge difference here. Someone taking their own life and someone taking another person's life.

Or it's your fault for making it illegal and making them risk harm to do it.
How is it my fault if they chose to do it.

We already see that what is not working?

The teach safe sex/increase contraception use approach

What do you mean "Am I accusing you of lying"? What do you think I'm accusing you of lying about?

Gosh I don't even remember.. Nvm then

 

[leahrachelle]

Some countries where abortion is illegal or severely restricted have abortion rates higher than that of the United States.

You have to realize that this is not the only factor though. People have different ways of life in other countries.

Most people just don't want fifteen kids.

Contraception.

If you marry at fifteen

What?? Is that legal where you live?

what we typically find is that most of the people who think abortion should be illegal also don't approve of comprehensive sex education or the ready availability of contraception

Are you kidding me?!? Where are you getting that from?? That cannot possibly be true; I don't believe that

Their answer, that nobody should have sex unless they're prepared to have a baby, is ridiculously unrealistic.

Umm no that is not our answer. 'Protection' is our answer

I sometimes wonder whether the "pro-life" position isn't a cynical calculation on the part of the leadership. They can keep their followers stirred up and motivated by talking about a "holocaust" of "babies." By managing to restrict sex education and the ready availability of contraception, they help make sure the "holocaust" continues. Job security![/quote]
WHY DONT YOU GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT FIRST BEFORE YOU GO AROUND CRITICIZING PEOPLE? kthanks.

 

[leahrachelle]

It's funny you should bring this up, since if abortion is made illegal you'll have more children who'll feel unwanted

Oh yeah its so much better to be dead. Who are you to say what they want huh??

if you don't know children are EXPENSIVE.

No, really? I did not know this....

This increase in financial burden is why some people get an abortion in the first place

Do you know how insanely cruel that sounds? Kill someone so they dont cost you money?! How selfish.

as having another child may put them beyond their ability to support themselves and their children.

Protection.

So you would rather children be forced into poverty, or put up for adoption in a system which many children are left parentless for the entire lives.

I'd rather them not dead

 

[Willamena]

It's their life.
And no, the baby is not their life.

So only the baby's life is sacred? Or what?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

From the definition you're implying, what law ISN'T ineffective?

Most of them. For one thing, any time the laws are roughly equivalent in the other jurisdiction, this problem doesn't apply. For instance, American laws against theft don't coax theives to do their stealing in Canada, because theft is illegal here, too.

For other laws, there are other controls: if you want a rug made from an endangered panda, it doesn't do you much good to fly to some country where you can buy it legally and bring it home, because it'll be confiscated by Customs when you get back to the States.

The only type of law I think is remotely similar to this hypothetical situation is certain forms of environmental legislation and employment standards: if you own a factory in the US, you're subject to certain rules about things like how much pollution you can emit and how much you have to pay your employees. Generally, companies can choose to work around this by moving their factory to some other company where they can pollute as much as they want and pay them a dollar a day, and then ship their goods to the US for sale... but still, I think the solution here is to put import restrictions on these sorts of goods; i.e. close up the sort of holes that you're apparently using as justification for your suggested law.

 

[leahrachelle]

Sorry if I'm double-posting anything guys. I keep getting errors.

 

[leahrachelle]

So only the baby's life is sacred? Or what?

No. Both of their lives are sacred.

 

[Willamena]

Are you kidding me?!? Where are you getting that from?? That cannot possibly be true; I don't believe that

It's called "abstinence only education", teaching abstinence instead of sex education or birth control methods.

 

[leahrachelle]

It's called "abstinence only education", teaching abstinence instead of sex education or birth control methods.

Yes, I know what it is. I know a lot of people that are pro-choice that are for this but none that are pro-life.

Regardless, there's always going to be some people on both sides, that contradict themselves.
I can't speak for them, but I would guess that a lot of them would still choose safe sex classes to prevent abortion, even if it is not their preference.

 

[leahrachelle]

Most of them. For one thing, any time the laws are roughly equivalent in the other jurisdiction, this problem doesn't apply. For instance, American laws against theft don't coax theives to do their stealing in Canada, because theft is illegal here, too.

For other laws, there are other controls: if you want a rug made from an endangered panda, it doesn't do you much good to fly to some country where you can buy it legally and bring it home, because it'll be confiscated by Customs when you get back to the States.

The only type of law I think is remotely similar to this hypothetical situation is certain forms of environmental legislation and employment standards: if you own a factory in the US, you're subject to certain rules about things like how much pollution you can emit and how much you have to pay your employees. Generally, companies can choose to work around this by moving their factory to some other company where they can pollute as much as they want and pay them a dollar a day, and then ship their goods to the US for sale... but still, I think the solution here is to put import restrictions on these sorts of goods; i.e. close up the sort of holes that you're apparently using as justification for your suggested law.

You are pretty much saying that a law is stupid if it isn't a law in other places. And that doesn't make any sense

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are pretty much saying that a law is stupid if it isn't a law in other places. And that doesn't make any sense

No, I'm not saying that. If you think I am, then you didn't understand what I wrote.

 

[leahrachelle]

No, I'm not saying that. If you think I am, then you didn't understand what I wrote.

Then what are you trying to say

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then what are you trying to say

For law to be effective, you need a mechanism to make sure that people follow it. The ones that don't are bad laws.

Here's an analogy: would you buy a car that belches blue smoke? Does the fact that you can look around and find some that do imply that it's okay for a car to do this?

 

[leahrachelle]

For law to be effective, you need a mechanism to make sure that people follow it. The ones that don't are bad laws.

It's not our fault if other countries don't agree with us, though.
If they want to go to Canada, for instance, and get an abortion, they have every right to and we can't stop them.
This is just like how gay people travel to different states to get married

Here's an analogy: would you buy a car that belches blue smoke? Does the fact that you can look around and find some that do imply that it's okay for a car to do this?

I don't understand this.

 

[Smoke]

What?? Is that legal where you live?

No, but it wasn't uncommon until relatively recently in the United States, and there are still several states in the United States where girls aged 15 or even younger can be married with parental or judicial consent. In some countries girls aged 12 or even younger can be married with parental consent.

Umm no that is not our answer. 'Protection' is our answer

I didn't say it was your answer, I said it was the answer of people who oppose both abortion and contraception.

WHY DONT YOU GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT FIRST BEFORE YOU GO AROUND CRITICIZING PEOPLE? kthanks.

I realize that you're young, but I think you could benefit from following your own advice.

 

[lamplighter]

Oh yeah its so much better to be dead. Who are you to say what they want huh??

Oh? Then why do people commit suicide? I don't recall anyone ever saying "WOW things sure are great, welp time to finish loading this gun so I can shoot myself now!". I don't think I ever met a poor child that didn't want to be loved by their parents, neglected children develop personality problems, then they become society's problems. You can't close your eyes and pretend it doesn't happen forever.

No, really? I did not know this....

You don't act like it.

Do you know how insanely cruel that sounds? Kill someone so they dont cost you money?! How selfish.

Life is unfair, cruel, and hard. Get over it, humans can't just live off the land like the used to, it takes money to live, you don't have money, and you'll find it's hard to eat, sleep, and be protected from the elements. Humans have basic needs that have to be met, and they cost money. Children need clothing, toys, food, medicine, vaccinations, a place to live where they aren't exposed to disease, and a bed instead of the floor to sleep on. Guess what all those things cost? Some people can't afford all this, and children require it, it isn't an option of if you want to give it to them or not.

Protection.

Protection from what?

I'd rather them not dead

Have you ever met a child who had to grow up like this? Have you ever had to meet someone with all hope stripped from them? I have, in fact I had to go to school with a girl who used to have to sleep in a car every night, or in a homeless shelter when it was too cold, until she just didn't come to school anymore because she was taken away from her parents. It is something that I'd hope no child would ever have to go through, but their are plenty out there that do. Some little half formed glob of cells that isn't even aware of it's own existence being destroyed is far less cruel than forcing them into a hopeless life where becoming a prostitute and/or junkie is the highlight. There are fates far worse than death. Why don't you try sleeping in your car for month, not having a dime to your name, no health insurance, hoping that the shelter might be giving out food if you get there early enough on Wednesday and scrapping what you can out of the McDonald's dumpster until then, then you can talk to me about what's better than death.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's not our fault if other countries don't agree with us, though.
If they want to go to Canada, for instance, and get an abortion, they have every right to and we can't stop them.
This is just like how gay people travel to different states to get married

Yes, it's beyond your control, but if a law ignores reality, it's not going to do what you want.

You said that you wanted to prohibit abortion in order to save what you consider to be human lives; my point is that many of these "lives" won't be saved at all; the abortions will just happen in a different place. Yes, you can't stop this, but it still means that your hypothetical law loses quite a bit of its point.

I don't understand this.

You referred to other ineffective laws as support for the idea that this ineffective law you're suggesting would be okay. My point is that this is like saying that the fact that there are broken-down cars driving around makes it okay to buy a broken-down car.

 

[Magic Man]

The teach safe sex/increase contraception use approach

Didn't you say that where you are it's illegal to teach safe sex? My point is that all of the points you mentioned earlier that could help reduce abortions are not in practice, and some of those which are in practice are not in practice enough. You say it's not working currently, but we're not doing what you said. So, how could you say it's not working when we're not even doing it?

Gosh I don't even remember.. Nvm then

OK. I was very confused.

 

[Magic Man]

Do you know how insanely cruel that sounds? Kill someone so they dont cost you money?! How selfish.

The thing is that they're not killing someone, they're getting rid of something. Most of those who get abortions don't see them as people yet.

 

[Magic Man]

No. Both of their lives are sacred.

But one is more sacred?