Atheists and Agnostics - you're missing all the fun!!

[ImmortalFlame]

I believe that the universe is old enough, and big enough, that everything that can exist, does.

You haven't really answered my question, again.

Allow me to be more specific:

Do you believe that Father Christmas, a magical being who lives at the north pole, makes presents for children with the help of his elf workers and delivers them under the trees of every good boy and girl in the world every year on the night of December 24th?

Do you believe in a small universe? with limited possibilities?

I believe I am not qualified to deduce the relative size of the Universe, nor what is possible nor impossible within it.

I'm going for a run...
[youtube]aQRYQMSmNoM[/youtube]
Hubble Deep Field - YouTube

think big thoughts while I'm away, I love big thoughts!

You've not really said anything enlightening whatsoever.

 

[LuisDantas]

For some reason, I felt impressed to get online to ruffle up some non-believers. Don't worry, I'm not going to condemn you to hell or anything, but I will say that you're beliefs are causing you to miss out on a lot of fun in life... to me, not seeing the spiritual side of life

I don't think there is much of a relationship between belief in God and having a spiritual life, though. Belief is as much of a hindrance as it is a help. It really depends on the person and the circunstances.

is like playing in the mud when you could be a few feet over enjoying a beautiful beach, or like living outside in a garden shed, when you could be living inside/enjoying your very own mansion. Just so you know (and I've been on both sides of it) life is better over here on the theist side of the fence. (and I am not telling anyone which spiritual group to join, so this should not be breaking any rules here).

So you actually managed to bring yourself to believe? It is possible after all?

I honestly can't even picture myself as a believer. Sure, I don't miss belief either. But all the same, it is not really a choice for me.

 

[Revoltingest]

I must admit though, that the science classes of some faiths look most entertaining.
[youtube]eVysgIqPSO8[/youtube]
Elmer Gantry vs. Evolution - YouTube

 

[WyattDerp]

[FONT=&quot]
meaning and purpose vs. Meaning and Purpose (capital M and P)
temporary joy and happiness vs. eternal Joy and Happiness (capital J and H)
potential vs. Potential (capital P)


theists out there, care to add onto the list?
[/FONT]

Here's something that might help with the effort:

PHP: ucfirst - Manual

 

[Iti oj]

I'd much rather live in a garden shed than a mansion. A garden shed is a much more appropriate size and closer to Nature. Why should I own a huge mansion by myself when other people don't even have a garden shed to live in?

When I stopped being a theist, I started to view the world through very different eyes. There was much more to discover, because I suddenly held very few answers. Instead of there just being a single beautiful beach just up next to the mud puddle, there were thousands of different beautiful areas, and mud was beautiful in itself. I had a new appreciation for life, because I no longer believed in an afterlife.

You might prefer to be a theist, but I got much more out of life by letting go of my beliefs.

amen. haha beautifully put.

 

[idea]

There's a lot to be said for recreating in the mud.
It's cool, comfortable, good for our skin, & a great way to relax after make'n bacon.....

We have other advantages over the various kinds of faithful too:
- We get to sleep in on Sundays.
- We may use cars, light switches, TVs, motorcycles & refrigerators on Saturdays.
- We may eat scallops, shrimp, beef & bacon. Did I mention bacon? We get bacon.
- We may imbibe spirits.
- We may conjure spirits.
- If we're charitable it's because we want to...not because we have to.
- We may tell priest & rabbi jokes without feeling guilty.
- We may make whoopee without no intention of procreation.
- We don't need to prevent anyone from having an abortion.
- We may wear big hats & fancy robes too if we want.
- We may believe that we're good people without blindly obeying a plethora of silly arbitrary rules.
- We don't have to kill our fellow man....or fellow gal.
- We don't have to tithe.
- We're allowed to defend ourselves.
- We may choose either gender for mates.
- We have no scripture to memorize.
- We've no master to order us around & threaten punishment.
- The Batmobile is way cooler than the Popemobile.
- We may embrace all of science.
- We needn't fear going to Hell.
- We don't condemn anyone to Hell.
- We don't have any unrealistic myths to defend as reality.
- We may enjoy all of your art, architecture, music & holidays.
- And we may still go to church to hit on your women & eat tasty pot luck dishes.

Did I leave out any? That's enuf for me.
I'd say that we be live'n the life of Riley!

LOL Revoltingest, theists don't have to do anything either, it's a choice for everyone you know - but I assure you, it's much more rewarding to cook and serve the pot-luck dishes, to be the creator of, and resident within such communities, then merely a tourist who doesn't really understand all of the local's oddities . ... wallflowers never have as much fun as the dancers.

 

[idea]

... it is not really a choice for me.

It's a choice - you can't prove anything either way, so the journey starts with a choice. The world is what we make of it, not seeing is believing, but believing is seeing. We see what we first believe - and we can come to see more, if we first believe in more.

 

[idea]

You haven't really answered my question, again.

Allow me to be more specific:

Do you believe that Father Christmas, a magical being who lives at the north pole, makes presents for children with the help of his elf workers and delivers them under the trees of every good boy and girl in the world every year on the night of December 24th?

[FONT=&quot]Saint Nicholas ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 March 270[/FONT][FONT=&quot] – [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 December 343[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), also called Nikolaos of Myra, was a historic 4th-century saint and Greek Bishop of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Myra[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Demre, part of modern-day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Turkey[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lycia[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He was a beloved, charitable man who tried to emulate someone else who had come before him, who had in turn emulated another. I believe in elves, because I have been one, and have worked with them. I believe in magical beings, because some of the people I know are too good to be true. I believe in giving gifts, but I believe the best gifts are those that are not wrapped up with a bow on top.[/FONT]

I believe I am not qualified to deduce the relative size of the Universe, nor what is possible nor impossible within it.

Good . That's a start.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

[FONT=&quot]Saint Nicholas ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 March 270[/FONT][FONT=&quot] – [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 December 343[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), also called Nikolaos of Myra, was a historic 4th-century saint and Greek Bishop of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Myra[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Demre, part of modern-day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Turkey[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lycia[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He was a beloved, charitable man who tried to emulate someone else who had come before him, who had in turn emulated another. I believe in elves, because I have been one, and have worked with them. I believe in magical beings, because some of the people I know are too good to be true. I believe in giving gifts, but I believe the best gifts are those that are not wrapped up with a bow on top.[/FONT]

I have asked you if you believe in the existence of a very specific, magical being. You have yet to give me a straight answer. Why is it so difficult for you?

Good . That's a start.

Don't assume that this is a "start" of any kind. I have thought about this subject extensively, quite possibly a great deal more than you have ever done.

Since I have answered you question directly and honestly, can you, for once, do the same for me? I expect either a yes or no.

 

[idea]

I have asked you if you believe in the existence of a very specific, magical being. You have yet to give me a straight answer. Why is it so difficult for you?

I gave you a straight answer - I believe that a real person named Nikolaos of Myra really lived, and that there are people who now really emulate him, but that the idea of charity did not originate with Nikolaos, but is much much older.

Often complex ideas are first presented as parables, the reality behind those parables becomes apparent with age. The reality that precedes the parable is generally more powerful and beautiful than the parable ever was - the reality that millions of children receive anonymous gifts each year by people who give without wanting credit in return - that people give like this because we are all directed by the same loving light, is beautiful, don't you think?


If you want to have a serious conversation, then here it is - "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye." Le Petit Prince (1943) is a novel by Antoine de Saint Exupéry

We're all directed by the same light, we can all feel it's tug within us. Life is more beautiful, fun, and full when you embrace the light that is within you, then if you fight against it, and rationalize it away. Yes, "being good" is hard, the best things in life are. Ask a marathon runner if it is worth it sometime though, is it worth the diet, the exercise, the pain, the work? Ask anyone who works towards something big - is it worth it? You can live life wallowing in the mud, or you can work towards something more than that, and if you want to reach something higher, why not reach as high as you can possibly imagine?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I gave you a straight answer - I believe that a real person named Nikolaos of Myra really lived, and that there are people who now really emulate him, but that the idea of charity did not originate with Nikolaos, but is much much older.

That's not a straight answer to the question at all. I was very specific in giving the details of what conceptual being I was referring to. "I believe there was someone called Saint Nikolas" is not an answer to "do you believe there is a magical being named Father Christmas who lives at the north pole and delivers presents to all the good children of the world every year on the night of December 24th?".

If you cannot see why that is so, then we no longer have anything to discuss since you are clearly incapable of giving an honest answer to a very straightforward question.

We're all directed by the same light, we can all feel it's tug within us. Life is more beautiful, fun, and full when you embrace the light that is within you, then if you fight against it, and rationalize it away.

And I disagree. I think when you give away your rationality you embrace fantasy, and a life which is lived guided by made-up principles that have no basis in reality, you are contributing nothing to reality itself. You are running from it. Life is far, far, far more beautiful when you see it for what it is, and stop trying to cloud it with the cheap invention of manmade myths and monsters and trying to say that they are real. Life is more beautiful when we accept these things for what they are: fantasy.

Yes, "being good" is hard, the best things in life are. Ask a marathon runner if it is worth it sometime though, is it worth the diet, the exercise, the pain, the work? Ask anyone who works towards something big - is it worth it?

You're right. Which is exactly why I am not religious.

Religion gives simple, childish answers to questions it couldn't possibly assess. It is far, far more difficult to use your mind and your rationality to test and assess reality than it is to make things up and live in a comfortable delusion.

You can live life wallowing in the mud, or you can work towards something more than that, and if you want to reach something higher, why not reach as high as you can possibly imagine?

The fact that you think people who don't believe in the same things as you are "wallowing in the mud" is the most perfect evidence of your ignorance than anything I could discern. You aren't trying to understand truth. You just believe what you want to believe because it makes you feel good, or because it's what you were told, or because it makes you feel better than us dirty atheists.

Let me make this simple: you don't know any better than anyone else. You are clearly not honest or accepting of reality if you utterly fail to answer a simple question about whether or not you believe in Father Christmas. If your connection to reality is so skewed that you fail to understand such a simple question, then frankly I'd much rather be wallowing in the mud rather than wallowing in whatever it is you are.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

[FONT=&quot]Saint Nicholas ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 March 270[/FONT][FONT=&quot] – [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 December 343[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), also called Nikolaos of Myra, was a historic 4th-century saint and Greek Bishop of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Myra[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Demre, part of modern-day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Turkey[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lycia[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He was a beloved, charitable man who tried to emulate someone else who had come before him, who had in turn emulated another.[/FONT]

That answer is why I am not a believer.

Believers must constantly duck various questions lest they suffer cognitive dissonance, and I couldn't live like that. I'd rather see the world as clearly as I can.

Was Joseph Smith put on trial for fraud?

 

[outhouse]

but I will say that you're beliefs are causing you to miss out on a lot of fun in life...

False assumption.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's a choice - you can't prove anything either way, so the journey starts with a choice. The world is what we make of it, not seeing is believing, but believing is seeing. We see what we first believe - and we can come to see more, if we first believe in more.

Sorry, you are simply failing at understanding how those things work for me.

I am very much an Atheist. I am happy that way. Wouldn't dream of "attempting" to change that. And it is not like it is even possible anyway.

 

[Revoltingest]

LOL Revoltingest, theists don't have to do anything either, it's a choice for everyone you know....

Ah, but the choices I freely make could be apostasy, abominable, condemning, guilt inducing, & even just plain evil for the faithful.
Some could even get you murdered in the more backward & intolerant communities of believers.

....I assure you, it's much more rewarding to cook and serve the pot-luck dishes, to be the creator of, and resident within such communities, then merely a tourist who doesn't really understand all of the local's oddities . ... wallflowers never have as much fun as the dancers.

I accept that you sincerely believe this to be a more rewarding experience, but I find different things rewarding.
Moreover, if it were even true that you have superior rewards, the choice of believing your myths is impossible for me.
I could no sooner do that than I could convince myself that the universe was created by & is run by:
- An invisible pink unicorn
- A plate of noodles with meatballs
- Richard Dawkins
- Allah
- A triumvirate of God, a Jewish zombie, & a ghost
- Lord Ganesha (who is the most attractive of gods)
- Zeus & his clan

Now for the more disturbing (for you) argument. You've picked the wrong faith.
http://india.nydailynews.com/newsar...3f3d/buddhist-monk-is-the-worlds-happiest-man

Tibetan monk and molecular geneticist Matthieu Ricard is the happiest man in the world according to
researchers at the University of Wisconsin. The 66-year-old’s brain produces a level of gamma waves
- those linked to consciousness, attention, learning and memory - never before reported in neuroscience.

It would seem that you & I both are lowly pikers in the enjoyment-of-life contest.

 

[hornsby]

i see you are mormon

.... I will say that you're beliefs are causing you to miss out on a lot of fun in life... ).

such as the fun of being but one of multiple submissive wives to your one husband, as was the case with your mormon religion until secular society finally shamed it into submission? although fundamentalist mormons managed to hold on to poligamy. how fun... FOR THE MORMON MAN..

.Just so you know (and I've been on both sides of it) life is better over here on the theist side of the fence).

I dont see how life would be better living in the shadows of a religion plagued by racism continuing the BLACK priesthood ban long after civil rights and desegregation were under way.

i personally would be plagued by whether god himself was wrong, or the mormon prophets were wrong...LOSE LOSE situation either way... i would either give up the mormon religion or god......

so you see, life as a mormon theist is only better and more fun if you live in denial

 

[testudoaubreii]

I mean what's the point of it all if you don't believe in God? If you don't have hope in an eternal existence? We're just some little speck on a little piece of dust floating around in the void, ignorant of 99.9999% of what is out there, scraping along until the sun blows up, or the next extinction event occurs, and then it's all gone, and what's the point of any of it?

This is precisely why there is religion. Well, that and to control the masses, of course . You do not want to except that there is nothing after death. It could be a scary thing. Seriously, I don't need to know if I have an eternal existence or not. That is not what is important to me. What is important to me is living every moment that I can on some little speck of dust floating around in the void, because this is it and we only have one shot. I live in complete and total happiness every day with my wife, my daughter and the rest of my family and I don't need to be assured that when I die I am going to go somewhere. That does not matter because we go nowhere. Do you remember what it was like before you were born? No, you do not and that is exactly what it will be like when you die.

Who is ignorant of 99.9999% of what is out there and what exactly does that even mean? Are you saying that non-believers do not see and recognize the good or happy things in life simply because we do not believe the way you do? Come on...that just comes across as arrogant and borderline insulting. It is like when I have a conversation with a theist and they tell me that they feel sorry for me because I do not believe.

Why your god allow something like the sun blowing up or another mass extinction to happen, anyway? I mean, really, what would be the point of that, so you can go to heaven I don't get where you are coming from with that statement.

It is pretty lousy if the entire point of being here is to worship god. The point is to live your life as merrily as you can, be a good person and help make the world a better place. What is wrong with that? Why must I look to what may or may not be after death when I have a perfectly great life right here on this plane?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Personally my life has been more fruitful, more productive, more fun, and more fulfilling since I jumped over the fence and into the non-theist side. And because now there is really no way that I can fully and truly 100% believe that some sort of god does actually exist, it's kinda pointless for me to even pretend because I could not have the faith required.
Plus I have blasphemed against and denied the holy ghost, so according to the Bible I am unforgivable.

Let's take just one of them. What is the purpose and meaning of life to a non-theist?
you could live for science - to invent the next car, or build a better refrigerator ... you could live for art, or music, to read all the books that were ever written... you could live to travel, or to be a humanitarian etc. etc. all good things, but all temporary.

I mean what's the point of it all if you don't believe in God? If you don't have hope in an eternal existence? We're just some little speck on a little piece of dust floating around in the void, ignorant of 99.9999% of what is out there, scraping along until the sun blows up, or the next extinction event occurs, and then it's all gone, and what's the point of any of it?

The meaning is what you make of it. Rather than finding guidance in a book, asking a priest, or praying, I look inwards to find my own meaning and guidance. It's done very well for me, much better than than the book, pastor, and prayers ever did.

We have other advantages over the various kinds of faithful too:
- We get to sleep in on Sundays.
- We may use cars, light switches, TVs, motorcycles & refrigerators on Saturdays.
- We may eat scallops, shrimp, beef & bacon. Did I mention bacon? We get bacon.
- We may imbibe spirits.
- We may conjure spirits.
- If we're charitable it's because we want to...not because we have to.
- We may tell priest & rabbi jokes without feeling guilty.
- We may make whoopee without no intention of procreation.
- We don't need to prevent anyone from having an abortion.
- We may wear big hats & fancy robes too if we want.
- We may believe that we're good people without blindly obeying a plethora of silly arbitrary rules.
- We don't have to kill our fellow man....or fellow gal.
- We don't have to tithe.
- We're allowed to defend ourselves.
- We may choose either gender for mates.
- We have no scripture to memorize.
- We've no master to order us around & threaten punishment.
- The Batmobile is way cooler than the Popemobile.
- We may embrace all of science.
- We needn't fear going to Hell.
- We don't condemn anyone to Hell.
- We don't have any unrealistic myths to defend as reality.
- We may enjoy all of your art, architecture, music & holidays.
- And we may still go to church to hit on your women & eat tasty pot luck dishes.

You can keep your bacon! Me, I'll take a grilled shrimp kabob any day of the week, for any meal, snack, or maybe even sometimes when I'm not actually hungry.
One thing you did miss though, is that as a non-believer you most likely have a much greater level of knowledge and understanding about the religion of the person who is telling you to follow their religion. Irony at it's finest if you ask me.

 

[Revoltingest]

You can keep your bacon! Me, I'll take a grilled shrimp kabob any day of the week, for any meal, snack, or maybe even sometimes when I'm not actually hungry.

Shrimp kababs are a joy for both of us!

 

[testudoaubreii]

Shrimp kababs are a joy for both of us!

Wrapped in bacon