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Atheists and Agnostics - you're missing all the fun!!
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McBell
Unbound
Nice deflection.
Since you do not seem interested in honest discourse, I shall bow out and leave you to your game of chess...
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Probably a good move since you appear to be playing with someone who thinks it's acceptable to move their pawn backwards.
McBell
Unbound
Pigeons are notorious for that.
I think it definitely varies on your mindset. Some people that play in the mud may see the people playing on the beach and think "they're crazy" and people who live in a garden shed might look at the opportunity of the mansion and think "What a waste"
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Careful. They often employ a sneaky strategy of crapping on the board after you castle.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
But see, if you just bow out in the middle of a game of chess you loose. And chess involves the ability to think several moves ahead of the present, ponder at several possibilities, attempt to logically deduce your opponents next move, and for a skillful player requires more cognitive ability than what is ever actually required just for regular living.
Saying you are loosing out because to me you are all playing in the mud is hardly anything that resembles a game of logic and reason.
Believing in Santa Claus was more fun than being the one giving kids presents, but that transition was part of having more knowledge of the world and taking more responsibility for how things are done. So I certainly wouldn't go back to that prior state.
Your post assumes a priori that a spiritual world actually exists and that people that disagree with you just aren't seeing it. The other way to look at it (and the more rational, evidenced based view, I believe), is that most things that humans have considered to be spiritual (Zeus, Allah, Jesus, Krishna, afterlives, magical spells, magical healing, etc) do not objectively exist, and that comparing spiritual and non-spiritual people is like comparing people that unfortunately see things that aren't there vs. people that are careful to avoid that trap.
Unless of course we take a very non-supernatural definition of the word 'spiritual' and include things like 'appreciating nature', which is not how you used it in context.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
PS
We don't have any goofy fella in a big tent telling us what to believe.
This......:clap
idea
Question Everything
A lot of wallowing in the mud going on in this thread... everyone is very talented at misrepresenting and tearing down what they do not understand, but no one has provided anything that gives life meaning and purpose beyond the mundane.... If you want to continue wasting your time in trivial pursuits, that is your choice, I just find it confusing why someone would choose mediocrity when there is so much more out there that they could have.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Given that I have only read this post of the entire thread, would be appropriate to assume you're trying to have me join the Church of Scientology?
idea
Question Everything
I'm not trying to get anyone to join any church, only to believe in a higher power than themselves, and a greater possibility for existence than this life.... strange how some are so scared and defensive of that idea.... why are people scared of recognizing a greater potential within themselves and others?
I know, I know, it's "too good to be true" - I hate that phrase, it assumes that "goodness" and "truth" are somehow mutually exclusive, and yet so many use that phrase, and incorporate it into their way of being.... Goodness is real, greatness is real, higher forms of life are real... it's just takes letting go of insecurities and fears to see it.
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Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
...or you could actually read the posts of this thread and realize no one is scared of an afterlife or a god. They just think it's bogus, and your empty words don't help the matter.
Also, if your argument is "it makes you feel better", you'd make a great drug dealer.
What do you see as elements of "the spiritual side of life", particularly the ones you think are fun?
Which of them require belief in God?
Douglas Adams said:
Frankly, your post here sounds freakishly like the sales pitch for multi-level marketing schemes like Mary Kay and Amway. I consider those things scams; what have you told us about what you're selling that suggests it should be held in higher regard?
Edit: and why on Earth would you think that belief in God is necessary to recognize potential in people?
From everything I've seen about LDS; it all seemed mundane and trivial to me personally, not to mention logically inconsistent. I don't really see why someone would choose such a thing when there is so much more out there that they could have, but you can continue spending your time that way if you wish...
Now astrophysics and psychology to better understand the universe and the human mind in systematically improvable ways; that seems more interesting to me.
For an honest question though, which of the following scriptures or philosophical works have you read?
-Rig Veda
-The Brahma Sutra
-The Bhagavad Gita
-The Mukhya Upanishads
-The other Upanishads
-Writings by modern authors on Hinduism
-Hebrew Bible
-Canon New Testament
-Gospel of Thomas and/or other Apocrypha
-The Book of Mormon
-The Qur'an
-The Hadiths
-Writings by modern authors on the Abrahamic religions
-Writings of Plato and/or Aristotle
-Writings of Roman Stoics
-The works of Spinoza
-The writings of Transcendentalists like Emerson or Thoreau
-Books in the New Age or New Thought category
-The Diamond Sutra
-The Heart Sutra
-The Tibetan Book of the Dead
-Other Buddhist scriptures
-Books or instruction on meditation, followed by practicing it
-Writings by modern authors on Buddhism
-Writings by pagans, native Americans, and other belief systems
-Any other works you consider to be spiritual or philosophical outside of your current religion, as this was a small subset
The question is not intended as rhetorical; I'm genuinely interested in which of the above texts you've thoroughly read and/or which other worldviews you've taken the time to look deeply into and become familiar with.
idea
Question Everything
Not just generic potential, but our greatest potential. Our greatest potential comes from the Father of our Spirit.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalms 82:5 - 7
Isa 41:23, John 10:34... over, and over again, we are told who we are, and what we can become if we choose greatness.
Once again, no one here has offered anything that even remotely compares.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
So, you're trying to convince yourself? Or are you preaching? They're the only two options I can discern from your egocentric posts and neither are worth debating.
What exactly is this "greater possibility", "greater potential", or "higher purpose" that you are offering?
That's the problem. You are claiming that theism, any theism, provides these greater things than we can't have as atheists, but you haven't shown what exactly they are, and how theism allows you to obtain them (or how lack of belief in any god prohibits you from obtaining them).
Great potential:
First, you must define what this is. I am assuming something along the lines of "being the best human you can be". I would define being the "best human you can be" as somebody who is kind, helps others, takes care of themselves, pursues things that interest them, develops their skills and talents, and leaves behind some legacy, whether it be through art, memories of friends, children, scientific or historical achievment, etc. Note that both theists and non-theists can acheive these things; note also that both theists and non-theist people can fail at these things. There's some theists, in fact, that seem to acutely fail at acheiving their best potential as a human being, e.g. suicide bombers, catholic inquisitors, etc
Greater possibility:
I'm assuming you are thinking of life after death. Belief in a higher power, howerver, is not required for belief in life after death. I personally really really hope reincarnation is correct-- I think it provides the best possible life-after-death opportunities-- but I do not need to hypothesize a God to make this a viable option.
And, of course, merely believing in life after death does not make it so. Do you think that it is preferable to believe that life after death exists even if it doesn't? Why should a falsehood be considered greater than the truth? (And since we don't know which is true and which is false, how can you categorically say that the belief that it is true is better?)
Higher purpose:
What purpose do you have in mind? Why should serving God necessarily be better or higher than all those things I listed under "potential?"
And isn't this rather subjective at the end of the day? How do you know that your purpose is higher than my purpose? It's like arguing that green is a prettier color than purple.
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idea
Question Everything
I've read quite a lot, I'm a convert to the Mormon faith, I converted because of a spiritual experience I had there, and continue to have there.
Can I ask you something, you have read many religious texts about other people, and their experiences - but have you ever heard the voice of God yourself? What is the most powerful spiritual experience you have had? and I'm not talking about emotional experience, or peaceful meditation - I'm talking the real deal, the experience where you realize you are not alone in the universe?
I have to run, but toss this idea around in your head - it's possible to have a real spiritual experience - the kind they talk about in the Bible, and in the Qur'an, and in a thousand other religious texts written by thousands of other people who have also had spiritual experiences... you can read all you want, but until you actually experience it for yourself... you're missing out on all the fun.
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