Atheists and Agnostics - you're missing all the fun!!

[Iti oj]

idea can you understand that some people gain more meaing and beauty and love of life etc from lacking theism?

a rainbow is much more amazing when you know why/how it formed its not just pretty its freaking amazing.

do you know the odds of you as an individual ever existing are? its ridiculous.

do you know what it feels like to do something good because you want to and you find it so. not because you were told or believe you should

 

[Penumbra]

I've read quite a lot, I'm a convert to the Mormon faith, I converted because of a spiritual experience I had there, and continue to have there.

Thanks for stating which things you've read.

Highlighting one or two in particular,

What are your thoughts on the Bhagavad Gita? How would you compare or contrast the presentation of the god in that worldview compared to the god in your worldview? What particular things did you like or not like about the spiritual concepts that Krishna taught to Arjuna?

What was your favorite or least favorite essay by Emerson, and what in particular did you like or dislike about it?

Can I ask you something, you have read many religious texts about other people, and their experiences - but have you ever heard the voice of God yourself? What is the most powerful spiritual experience you have had?

Are you saying you hear voices in your head?

This is once again along the lines of assuming a priori that your spiritual claims are objectively true.

I want to ask you something- since you've read a decent number of religious texts as well- have you communicated directly with Krishna yourself?

and I'm not talking about emotional experience, or peaceful meditation - I'm talking the real deal, the experience where you realize you are not alone in the universe?

Advanced practitioners of meditation propose that meditation can lead to supreme enlightenment; if all you experienced was 'peaceful meditation' then you didn't go all the way in those worldviews.

Have you experienced the Buddha's experience of Nirvana?

I have to run, but toss this idea around in your head - it's possible to have a real spiritual experience - the kind they talk about in the Bible, and in the Qur'an, and in a thousand other religious texts written by thousands of other people who have also had spiritual experiences... you can read all you want, but until you actually experience it for yourself... you're missing out on all the fun.

Ok, when you come back, after tossing this idea around in your head- it's possible to truly become enlightened- the kind they talk about in Buddhist scripture.

You can read them all you want, but until you actually experience release from Samsara, you're missing out on all the fun.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not just generic potential, but our greatest potential. Our greatest potential comes from the Father of our Spirit.


5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalms 82:5 - 7

Isa 41:23, John 10:34... over, and over again, we are told who we are, and what we can become if we choose greatness.

Once again, no one here has offered anything that even remotely compares.

Frankly, all you've offered so far are empty words.

I asked you several questions that you skipped. Care to answer them?

 

[idea]

a rainbow is much more amazing when you know why/how it formed

I agree, and there is more that forms it than the scattering of light in water droplets. The universe is fine-tuned, the order and laws that govern nature teach us of God.

do you know the odds of you as an individual ever existing are? its ridiculous.

The odds of coming into existence are ridiculous, and not something I believe happened. I agree with the simpler solution - which is we have always existed, just as everything has, and therefore never needed to overcome such overwhelming odds.

do you know what it feels like to do something good because you want to and you find it so. not because you were told or believe you should

of coarse. Our free agency is evidence of our eternal nature - we act, not because of our DNA, (not the color of our skin) or because of nurture, or nature - there are some actions we are able to take that are un-caused - uncreated - and originate 100% within us.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

That which is created has no free will, and only reacts according to how it was created.. only those things that are uncreated, are self-causal, have a true ability to act - from within.

 

[idea]

Thanks for stating which things you've read.

Highlighting one or two in particular,

What are your thoughts on the Bhagavad Gita? How would you compare or contrast the presentation of the god in that worldview compared to the god in your worldview? What particular things did you like or not like about the spiritual concepts that Krishna taught to Arjuna?

I love the poetry of it, it's been awhile sense I've read it, but I remember the battle, and how excited he was to fight, until he recognized he would be fighting against people within his own family, that he knew and loved - then it wasn't so fun anymore. I remember it having many parallels to real life.

What was your favorite or least favorite essay by Emerson, and what in particular did you like or dislike about it?

That he was rather anti-social, which part of me appreciates, but now that I grow older I've come to understand the values of being with people more, I now think it's better to put up with all the social silliness in order to make other comfortable, and think the point of life is the relationships we form, love is the #1 commandment and all that - social silliness helps many grow closer to one another and show their love for one another, so I don't mind it as much.

Are you saying you hear voices in your head?

This is once again along the lines of assuming a priori that your spiritual claims are objectively true.

Many people claim many things, I'm not the only person to have had spiritual experiences, and no, they did not come from my own mind. We're all directed to do things that on our own we would not do (like "call your mother" and then you think "no, she's busy, I don't want to etc. etc."...) some call it the id / ego, but it's more than that.... I've experienced more than that though, I've been warned of things my natural senses were unable to detect, I've been given personal guidance for what road to take, and encouragement to continue when I didn't have faith that I could make it through, I've been upheld by a hand, have been lifted by a force beyond my own. It's carried me through, and is there for everyone.

I want to ask you something- since you've read a decent number of religious texts as well- have you communicated directly with Krishna yourself?

Advanced practitioners of meditation propose that meditation can lead to supreme enlightenment; if all you experienced was 'peaceful meditation' then you didn't go all the way in those worldviews.

Have you experienced the Buddha's experience of Nirvana?

Ok, when you come back, after tossing this idea around in your head- it's possible to truly become enlightened- the kind they talk about in Buddhist scripture.

You can read them all you want, but until you actually experience release from Samsara, you're missing out on all the fun.

I think the same experience goes by many different names, in Christianity, it's the sensation of forgiveness - of having all guilt and pain swept away, with the beauty of the freedom that a fresh start provides. "My burden is light" - not grasping, it's putting it all in His hands, of not carrying anything negative around anymore, of living with faith and hope that everything will work together for good in the end - knowing there is peace and harmony and eternal joy.

read these:
How Mormons Are Buddhists & Vice Versa | Mormon Matters

Utah Local News - Salt Lake City News, Sports, Archive - The Salt Lake Tribune

All light and truth comes from the same source, different tribes, different names for the same rose.

 

[Penumbra]

I love the poetry of it, it's been awhile sense I've read it, but I remember the battle, and how excited he was to fight, until he recognized he would be fighting against people within his own family, that he knew and loved - then it wasn't so fun anymore. I remember it having many parallels to real life.

So you don't remember much about it? That all happens in the first page or two.

That he was rather anti-social, which part of me appreciates, but now that I grow older I've come to understand the values of being with people more, I now think it's better to put up with all the social silliness in order to make other comfortable, and think the point of life is the relationships we form, love is the #1 commandment and all that - social silliness helps many grow closer to one another and show their love for one another, so I don't mind it as much.

I asked about your favorite or least favorite essay of his and what you thought of it, since you stated you read his work. Your answer was not about an essay at all.

More importantly, Emerson was a very social man with many friends and acquaintances, a wife and children, and loved to spend time with many of them. He was also a professional lecturer that traveled around sharing his ideas with audiences and then discussing them. He was quite a popular, playful character.

Are you mixing up Emerson with Thoreau, or someone else? Because you didn't mention any of his essays like the question asked and your description of Emerson is just about completely opposite of his person and his work...

 

[Penumbra]

Many people claim many things, I'm not the only person to have had spiritual experiences,

Yes, but people have quite a number of experiences that differ and sometimes contradict each other.

and no, they did not come from my own mind.

Can you demonstrate this to be true?

We're all directed to do things that on our own we would not do (like "call your mother" and then you think "no, she's busy, I don't want to etc. etc."...) some call it the id / ego, but it's more than that.... I've experienced more than that though, I've been warned of things my natural senses were unable to detect, I've been given personal guidance for what road to take, and encouragement to continue when I didn't have faith that I could make it through, I've been upheld by a hand, have been lifted by a force beyond my own. It's carried me through, and is there for everyone.

I think the same experience goes by many different names, in Christianity, it's the sensation of forgiveness - of having all guilt and pain swept away, with the beauty of the freedom that a fresh start provides. "My burden is light" - not grasping, it's putting it all in His hands, of not carrying anything negative around anymore, of living with faith and hope that everything will work together for good in the end - knowing there is peace and harmony and eternal joy.

read these:
How Mormons Are Buddhists & Vice Versa | Mormon Matters

Utah Local News - Salt Lake City News, Sports, Archive - The Salt Lake Tribune

All light and truth comes from the same source, different tribes, different names for the same rose.

Are you sure it's the same experience? Because Buddha's teachings have little or nothing to do with deities or external salvation, Nirvana is not described in terms of putting anything in anyone's hands, and Buddhists that believe that gods exist (many do not) generally believe that gods are stuck within the cycle of Samsara and not to be followed...

 

[Revoltingest]

A minor diversion about Mormons in the news...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sword-wielding-lds-bishop-aid-neighbor-article-1.1325905

Samurai sword-wielding Mormon bishop comes to aid of Utah neighbor chased and attacked by stalker, authorities say

 

[idea]

Are you mixing up Emerson with Thoreau,

Thoreau was more anti-social, but they both seemed to value individualism without taking the next step of inter-dependance. I agree that individualism is an important progressive step, but do not see it as the ultimate/best position, as I value community above the individual.

Are you sure it's the same experience? Because Buddha's teachings have little or nothing to do with deities or external salvation, Nirvana is not described in terms of putting anything in anyone's hands, and Buddhists that believe that gods exist (many do not) generally believe that gods are stuck within the cycle of Samsara and not to be followed...

I think the Buddhist principle of living free of desires is akin to letting go of it all and putting it in God's hands.

I find many similarities:
Illustrations of the Tao

as others do to, and believe that they all come from the same source.

 

[idea]

A minor diversion about Mormons in the news...
Samurai sword-wielding Mormon bishop comes to aid of Utah neighbor chased and attacked by stalker, authorities say - NY Daily News

LOL, yea I saw that this morning, don't mess with Mormons!

 

[outhouse]

Our greatest potential comes from the Father of our Spirit.

He is NOT "our" spirit. He is yours. He is not my father, he is yours.


My potential comes from my drive and ability to learn and advance my unbiased knowledge, while living a fruitful life raising my family.


You have no right to even begin to talk down to my lifestyle or personal choices inflecting your personal mythology on me or others.



You know we luv ya, but certain lines I don't cross, nor should you.

 

[idea]

As for having an "eternal soul mate," there are two issues with that statement:

1. Why do you expect that people should accept that statement as true?

2. Even if they did, why do you expect that people should believe that believing in your religion and accepting its scriptures is what will lead them to having an eternal soul mate? What if it was another religion that leads to such, for instance?

Eternal families is one of the big Mormon doctrines, I'd be genuinely interested to hear if anyone else is teaching this too? I really do think we are all led by the same God. Needless to say, our marriage vows do not end with "till death do you part" as we make vows that transcend death. Our temple ceremonies are centered around the ideal of eternal families, and the point of heaven for us is creating eternal bonds with friends and families. I really would be interested to hear if there are other groups who also teach the possibility of eternal bonds.

I think we all rely on material understanding to form our worldviews, so I see nothing wrong with that at all.

And what guarantee is there that belief in your religion would necessarily lead to "seeing beyond the physical" (whatever you mean by that)?

The material world can be beautiful, but there is certainly more than that. Thoughts, information, ideas, creativity to imagine what is not yet there, and then create it - conscience - it's a union of the physical and the spiritual that produces a fullness of joy.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples;
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:33 - 35)

the material is the house, or temple, of the spiritual. Without a spirit, the temple is empty and pointless.

4) Many people seem to see meaning and purpose in their lives while following other religions or without having a religion at all. I don't see why your religion would have some kind of monopoly on that, at least not if we went by the arguments you've offered so far.

I didn't say they did not have meaning and purpose, I just didn't capitalize it. Theistic beliefs give rise to grander goals, and higher Meaning and Purposes - ie - the salvation of all mankind, present and past - the promise of eternal life, everyone becoming perfected etc. etc. nothing else compares to that.

The rest of the points you've raised all seem to be hinged on the same misconceptions about what being an agnostic/atheist entails, so the same objections would apply to them as the ones I already addressed above.

I agree that many atheists and agnostics live meaningful pleasant lives, I just think there is more out there, and that anyone who closes their eyes to the spiritual is missing out on quite a chunk of what life is all about.

 

[idea]

He is NOT "our" spirit. He is yours. He is not my father, he is yours.

My potential comes from my drive and ability to learn and advance my unbiased knowledge, while living a fruitful life raising my family.

You have no right to even begin to talk down to my lifestyle or personal choices inflecting your personal mythology on me or others.

You know we luv ya, but certain lines I don't cross, nor should you.

I'm not talking anyone down, I'm sure what you have is wonderful, it's not an insult to suggest that there is more though. as good as everything is, it can always be better, that the fun part about life - there's not upper bound to how incredible it can be.

ok, my computer is trying to go through it's nightly regime, so I'll stop fighting with it. Goodnight everyone!

 

[Penumbra]

Thoreau was more anti-social, but they both seemed to value individualism without taking the next step of inter-dependance. I agree that individualism is an important progressive step, but do not see it as the ultimate/best position, as I value community above the individual.

Are you familiar with Emerson's essay, The Oversoul?

From what you've said so far, you do not seem to be genuinely familiar with his work.

I think the Buddhist principle of living free of desires is akin to letting go of it all and putting it in God's hands.

I find many similarities:
Illustrations of the Tao

as others do to, and believe that they all come from the same source.

The Tao is from Taoism.

Have you read the Tao Te Ching?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I messed up and ended up removing the original post, so I apologize for that.

Anyway, to address your response:

Eternal families is one of the big Mormon doctrines, I'd be genuinely interested to hear if anyone else is teaching this too? I really do think we are all led by the same God. Needless to say, our marriage vows do not end with "till death do you part" as we make vows that transcend death. Our temple ceremonies are centered around the ideal of eternal families, and the point of heaven for us is creating eternal bonds with friends and families. I really would be interested to hear if there are other groups who also teach the possibility of eternal bonds.

Islam teaches that you will be in Heaven with your family and friends if you and they died as sincere Muslims, and that includes husbands and wives.

Why should the Mormon teaching hold any more weight than the Islamic one?

The material world can be beautiful, but there is certainly more than that. Thoughts, information, ideas, creativity to imagine what is not yet there, and then create it - conscience - it's a union of the physical and the spiritual that produces a fullness of joy.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples;
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:33 - 35)

the material is the house, or temple, of the spiritual. Without a spirit, the temple is empty and pointless.

And what evidence is there that the "spirit" you speak of is what causes humans to be conscious, imagine things, create them, and come up with new ideas? Those are a lot of assumptions, so you have to support them first before moving on to what supposedly happens to said "spirit" in the concept of afterlife you believe in.

I didn't say they did not have meaning and purpose, I just didn't capitalize it. Theistic beliefs give rise to grander goals, and higher Meaning and Purposes - ie - the salvation of all mankind, present and past - the promise of eternal life, everyone becoming perfected etc. etc. nothing else compares to that.

Without a reason to believe that those promises you speak of are true, then they're just fancy words.

Also, as I said above, Islamic scripture promises Heaven to sincere Muslims, too. Why should I believe Mormonism over that? What if the Islamic promises are the true ones and all Muslims will go to Heaven while non-Muslims will go elsewhere?

I agree that many atheists and agnostics live meaningful pleasant lives, I just think there is more out there, and that anyone who closes their eyes to the spiritual is missing out on quite a chunk of what life is all about.

People don't just push a button and believe something all of a sudden when they "want" to; you'd have to offer convincing arguments if you want people to accept and/or adopt your position, but you've yet to give a solid argument as to why atheists and agnostics—or anyone who doesn't follow your religion, for that matter—would be guaranteed to lead a happier or more meaningful life by converting than they already do.

 

[Penumbra]

There once was a fish that lived in a lovely pond. He had plenty of food, had many friends, enjoyed the beauty of it, and considered it to be so big.

As all the fish in the pond knew, there was a stream that connected the pond to other waters where other fish lived. Some of the pond fish occasionally ventured into the stream a little ways, but they rarely went far. They felt like they had everything they wanted right where they were.

But one day, this fish decided to do something different. He decided that he would swim all the way down the stream. He wanted to invite everyone to his pond so that he could give them a better place to live. He was so excited to share his abundance with everyone else that was lacking.

As he swam down the stream, he realized it was a lot longer than he thought, and it constantly branched into multiple directions. He eventually came to something he was unfamiliar with. The vastness and diversity were incredible- blue waters stretched as far as the eye could see, and there were more fish than he'd ever seen. There were also sharks, eels, crabs, octopi, and even whales that have traveled great distances.

Undeterred, the fish was excited at how many creatures he could tell about the pond. He started telling other fish how lovely this pond was, but saw that many of them were uninterested. Some of them were polite and listened to what he had to say, but then swam onto other adventures in the vastness. Some of them tried to explain that they had visited many ponds, including his, as part of their adventures.

The fish insisted to a whale that he was missing out, that the pond could offer him so much more. "Little fish", the whale explained (having seen this many times before), "why would I visit a pond when I'm right here in the ocean?"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A lot of wallowing in the mud going on in this thread... everyone is very talented at misrepresenting and tearing down what they do not understand, but no one has provided anything that gives life meaning and purpose beyond the mundane.... If you want to continue wasting your time in trivial pursuits, that is your choice, I just find it confusing why someone would choose mediocrity when there is so much more out there that they could have.

What of those of us who have improved significantly since we ditched religion? When I was religious I had no drive, no ambition, and no goals because my life was all entirely up to God. Then I had an epiphany, ditched religion, had another epiphany, and ever since my life has been moving forward. One of the most significant improvement was my grades, which went from a C range (and included the occasional F) in high school, an F GPA my first time in college, and when I took over my own life and realized my own potential and abilities, my own Godhood, my GPA is now an A and after the stack of letters from various universities throughout the nation I am considering ditching my plans to go to Ball State and just go wherever looks good. I'll be able to pay in-state tuition at many out-of-state universities, some of them offering a rate even less than that. And I did it without god or religion.
Religion: Been there, done that, gave the t-shirt to Goodwill.

 

[Jupimartian]

Definitely, the overwhelming guilt of sinning, the self-hatred for never being morally perfect, the anger toward the supposed infidels (aka people doing what they want without hurting anyone), the despair of some of my friends being hellbound, and the false hope that if I prayed hard enough, God would make my life easier were all much better than finding the beauty in each moment during my limited time on earth.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Definitely, the overwhelming guilt of sinning, the self-hatred for never being morally perfect, the anger toward the supposed infidels (aka people doing what they want without hurting anyone), the despair of some of my friends being hellbound, and the false hope that if I prayed hard enough, God would make my life easier were all much better than finding the beauty in each moment during my limited time on earth.

If I stick to the wallowing in the mud analogy, when I was a Christian it wasn't mud I was wallowing in but a large pile of guano. Oh how my own natural thoughts, urges, desires, and dreams tormented me, how I had to force myself into a mold to follow the laws of ancient shepherds as best as I could, and how much scarier the darkness and shadows were then. Of course I had a very twisted and distorted faith then, but today I assume by default people are not that honest (either through willful lies or false memory recall), and I see no reason to believe that an alleged holy-text, which was wrote by a human being, is any different. Where I use to see a divine miracle that happened to Paul on his way to Damascus, I now see nothing more than the ramblings of a schizophrenic who was more of a polar opposite of Jesus than someone who could have actually followed the ways of someone who said to turn the other cheek.

 

[Cordoba]

Some believers said many centuries ago:

If other people knew what we have (i.e. the level of our happiness and inner peace), they would have fought against us to know our secret

Inner peace is indeed Paradise on earth, and that is what many people miss in life ...