Atheists and God

[gerobbins]

If you consider what you've done "trying", sure. I haven't seen you put forth much effort, though. If you're really interested, why don't you go ahead and respond to the constructive comments we've made about your claims?

Give me constructive comments on your claims as well. You know why you don't because its always comes back to the same thing.

What I say and what you say. A big circle.

I could say, we could we could agree to disagree, but I bet you would disagree with that.

 

[Magic Man]

Give me constructive comments on your claims as well. You know why you don't because its always comes back to the same thing.

What I say and what you say. A big circle.

I could say, we could we could agree to disagree, but I bet you would disagree with that.

So, I'll go back to the fact that you're not interested in a real discussion then. Thanks anyway.

 

[Magic Man]

My point with Madalyn Murray O'Hair is she was to one extreme and you can't deny that fact. It was her way or no way. Just as with Paisley is,its his way or no way.

Wait, so having a belief or lack thereof, and having a strong conviction in that belief on non-belief equates to "being to one extreme"? Why?

 

[gerobbins]

Ok lets start from the beginning. Ignoring the article since it seems to make everyone uptight.

Why are you an atheist?

 

[Magic Man]

Ok lets start from the beginning. Ignoring the article since it seem to give everyone uptight.

Why are you an atheist?

There we go. That's a much better way to start a real discussion.

I'm an atheist because I see a lack of evidence for the existence of gods, and because it seems that the only reasons people have believed in gods is to explain the unexplainable and because it comforts them.

 

[Magic Man]

Out of curiosity, why did you feel the need to add the picture of Spock?

 

[gerobbins]

There we go. That's a much better way to start a real discussion.

I'm an atheist because I see a lack of evidence for the existence of gods, and because it seems that the only reasons people have believed in gods is to explain the unexplainable and because it comforts them.

Cool, and I can see your point.

Now for me, I believe because of everyting that has happened in my life. Things prayed for and those things answered.
And on more then one occasion.
Its nothing to to with comfort on my end. Some may say coincidence, but it has happened too many times for it to be so.

I also look at the wonders of the universe and its beauty and wonder and from my persepective I see a creator. I don't see things just happening.

The perfection of our world and universe for example and its diversity.



Sometimes you have to have faith in something without having to prove it all the time because it is unexplainable.

Either way I guess, we can't prove who is right and who is wrong.

 

[gerobbins]

Out of curiosity, why did you feel the need to add the picture of Spock?

Big Star Trek fan. The vulcan philosophy of "Live long and Prosper"
Wishing that upon you.

 

[Magic Man]

Cool, and I can see your point.

Now for me, I believe because of everyting that has happened in my life. Things prayed for and those things answered.
And on more then one occasion.
Its nothing to to with comfort on my end. Some may say coincidence, but it has happened too many times for it to be so.

My question to you then is how do you explain the times when you pray for something and the prayers aren't answered? Also, if your prayers are answered, does that mean God changed the course of things because of your prayer?

I also look at the wonders of the universe and its beauty and wonder and from my persepective I see a creator. I don't see things just happening.

The perfection of our world and universe for example and its diversity.

Why do you classify the world or universe as perfect?

Sometimes you have to have faith in something without having to prove it all the time because it is unexplainable.

Why? Why is it that you give God a pass in this way, where you don't give Allah or Vishnu the same pass, for instance?

Either way I guess, we can't prove who is right and who is wrong.

No, we sure can't. I'm more interested in the reasoning anyway, more than who's right.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And since when was the last time in this century that slavery was supported by modern christians?
Please don't tell me that slavery was only a concept adhered to by Christians way back when. I mean really.

Does it matter? Does the truth of the Bible change over time?

My point with Madalyn Murray O'Hair is she was to one extreme and you can't deny that fact. It was her way or no way. Just as with Paisley is,its his way or no way.

She's probably one of the most extreme atheists, but she is nowhere near as extreme as Ian Paisley.

That was my point before: someone who spoke out in favour of religion just as strongly as O'Hair spoke out in favour of atheism would be considered by most people to be boring, maybe... not "extreme".

You have yet to see an atheist as "extreme" as Paisley is an "extreme" Christian.

 

[gerobbins]

My question to you then is how do you explain the times when you pray for something and the prayers aren't answered? Also, if your prayers are answered, does that mean God changed the course of things because of your prayer?



Why do you classify the world or universe as perfect?



Why? Why is it that you give God a pass in this way, where you don't give Allah or Vishnu the same pass, for instance?



No, we sure can't. I'm more interested in the reasoning anyway, more than who's right.

I can figure out how to muliti quote for the life of me, so if I miss anything let me know.

Sometimes the answer is no. You can't always get what you want. My best explanation is that you don't always get what you want as it may not be good for you.

I see the universe as perfect as for all is splendor. Our planet for example is just ripe for life to exisit. The Earth is at the pefect distance from the sun for life.

The moon is at the perfect distance from the earth to create the tides.

The earth's axis is at the perfect angle to create the seasons and so on.

To me, that could have not just happened. The earth is the perfect machine.

You notice how nature always corrects itself? I can't see that being just a fluke.

As for Allah, that is arabic name for God. Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God. Though they have different ways of believing.

As for Vishnu I don't know enough about Hinduism. I guess I will have to read up on it more.

Anyways, I got to sign off for now I will be back in a day or two.

 

[Autodidact]

Ok, my complaint: People like Madalyn Murray O'Hair who is on the extreme side of athiesm. She is to Atheism to someone like Ian Paisley is to Christianity.
And if you don't know who he is, look him up. The man is truly out there.
It was activist such as she was, that gives me cause to complain.

Personally, I could care less if someone is an atheist or not, but don't go taking away my rights because I am not.

Please provide a single example of someone trying to take away your rights for not being an atheist.

 

[Autodidact]

Ok, my complaint: People like Madalyn Murray O'Hair who is on the extreme side of athiesm.

1. She died in 1995. Get over it.
2. What did she do that bothers you so much? She is to Atheism to someone like Ian Paisley is to Christianity.

And if you don't know who he is, look him up. The man is truly out there.
It was activist such as she was, that gives me cause to complain.

Why? In what way?

Yes, I can understand your point of view in such matters but I should have the freedom to believe just as you should have the freedom not to.

Did someone say different? Has anyone here claimed that you should not have such freedom? It is very important and valuable to me that you have that freedom. That doesn't mean that I don't have the freedom to disagree and to say so, which does not limit your freedom in any way.

As for Stalin, I was just making a point. There are good Christians and bad and the same goes for Athiests.

duh.

 

[Autodidact]

But such a position is not a direct result of atheism any more than somebody killing to promote a painting is a direct result of the painting. Nor is it even an indirect result of atheism, because his interpretation of atheism is still entirely unrelated to his activities which were largely inspired by political motives.

Sounds like special pleading to me. How is this different from Pope Innocent III or Osama Bin Laden?

 

[Magic Man]

I can figure out how to muliti quote for the life of me, so if I miss anything let me know.

You can do it manually by typing [ / quote ] (without the spaces) after the first part you want to quote. Then you can just select what you want to quote and click on the "quote" button in line with the bold, italic and underline options.

Sometimes the answer is no. You can't always get what you want. My best explanation is that you don't always get what you want as it may not be good for you.

OK, so then I have another question. If God knows what's good and bad for you, and he only answers some prayers because they're good for you, why does he answer any prayers? To answer your prayer, it would require him to change his plan for you. If it was already the plan for you before you prayed, then he's not actually answering your prayers. So, what you're saying is that with prayer, you convince God to change his plan for you.

I see the universe as perfect as for all is splendor. Our planet for example is just ripe for life to exisit. The Earth is at the pefect distance from the sun for life.

The moon is at the perfect distance from the earth to create the tides.

The earth's axis is at the perfect angle to create the seasons and so on.

To me, that could have not just happened. The earth is the perfect machine.

You notice how nature always corrects itself? I can't see that being just a fluke.

I see. I just don't consider that perfection. Yes, it just so happens that we have the perfect conditions for human life on Earth. I don't think that makes the earth the perfect machine, though. And it certainly could have just happened. I understand that you don't think it did, but the idea that it couldn't happen without an intelligent designer is incorrect. God is not necessary to explain anything in the universe.

The fact is that there are thousands of trillions of stars in the universe with even more planets revolving around them. The idea that certain chemicals came together in the right environment at least one time out of quadrillions isn't anything special. I've always liked the puddle story, where a puddle looks at the hole he's in and says "Hey, this hole fits me perfectly. It must have been made specifically for me". In reality, the water fell into the hole, and that's how it ended up that way.

In the same way, you look at it as the world being designed for us. I look at it as us evolving to fit the world we live in.

As for Allah, that is arabic name for God. Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God. Though they have different ways of believing.

As for Vishnu I don't know enough about Hinduism. I guess I will have to read up on it more.

But they don't quite believe in the same god. It's not just different ways of believing. They believe very different things about that god.

Anyway, my point was that you say sometimes you just have to have faith in something. My question is how you determine when that is. Why don't you feel you just have to have faith that Zeus is real? Why don't you feel you have to have faith that you can jump out of a 30-story building and fly? Why do you apply that standard to the concept of your god, but not to pretty much anything else?

Anyways, I got to sign off for now I will be back in a day or two.

Later.

 

[Magic Man]

Sounds like special pleading to me. How is this different from Pope Innocent III or Osama Bin Laden?

Because there are teachings in their religions that specifically tell them to do those things. There aren't any atheist teachings.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Sounds like special pleading to me. How is this different from Pope Innocent III or Osama Bin Laden?

Their actions were directly inspired by passages in their respective holy books, and they used said passages as justification for their actions.

 

[Autodidact]

I can figure out how to muliti quote for the life of me, so if I miss anything let me know.

Sometimes the answer is no. You can't always get what you want. My best explanation is that you don't always get what you want as it may not be good for you.

What we actually see is that you get what you pray for at the exact same rate as random chance--the exact same rate as if you didn't pray. Prayer has no effect on the world outside the person praying. None. The effect is literally invisible.

I see the universe as perfect as for all is splendor. Our planet for example is just ripe for life to exisit. The Earth is at the pefect distance from the sun for life.

The moon is at the perfect distance from the earth to create the tides.

The earth's axis is at the perfect angle to create the seasons and so on.

To me, that could have not just happened. The earth is the perfect machine.

If any of those things were different, then things would be different, but they're not, so they're not, so what?

You know that our entire solar system is about the size of a sub-atomic particle, compared to the universe? But it's a lovely little subatomic particle, I agree.

 

[gerobbins]

1. She died in 1995. Get over it.
2. What did she do that bothers you so much? She is to Atheism to someone like Ian Paisley is to Christianity. [/color]
Why? In what way?
Did someone say different? Has anyone here claimed that you should not have such freedom? It is very important and valuable to me that you have that freedom. That doesn't mean that I don't have the freedom to disagree and to say so, which does not limit your freedom in any way.
duh.

You know, unless you want to respond with out the sarcasm, I won't bother replying to your posts. Except for this one that is...

 

[gerobbins]

You can do it manually by typing [ / quote ] (without the spaces) after the first part you want to quote. Then you can just select what you want to quote and click on the "quote" button in line with the bold, italic and underline options.



OK, so then I have another question. If God knows what's good and bad for you, and he only answers some prayers because they're good for you, why does he answer any prayers? To answer your prayer, it would require him to change his plan for you. If it was already the plan for you before you prayed, then he's not actually answering your prayers. So, what you're saying is that with prayer, you convince God to change his plan for you.



I see. I just don't consider that perfection. Yes, it just so happens that we have the perfect conditions for human life on Earth. I don't think that makes the earth the perfect machine, though. And it certainly could have just happened. I understand that you don't think it did, but the idea that it couldn't happen without an intelligent designer is incorrect. God is not necessary to explain anything in the universe.

The fact is that there are thousands of trillions of stars in the universe with even more planets revolving around them. The idea that certain chemicals came together in the right environment at least one time out of quadrillions isn't anything special. I've always liked the puddle story, where a puddle looks at the hole he's in and says "Hey, this hole fits me perfectly. It must have been made specifically for me". In reality, the water fell into the hole, and that's how it ended up that way.

In the same way, you look at it as the world being designed for us. I look at it as us evolving to fit the world we live in.



But they don't quite believe in the same god. It's not just different ways of believing. They believe very different things about that god.

Anyway, my point was that you say sometimes you just have to have faith in something. My question is how you determine when that is. Why don't you feel you just have to have faith that Zeus is real? Why don't you feel you have to have faith that you can jump out of a 30-story building and fly? Why do you apply that standard to the concept of your god, but not to pretty much anything else?



Later.

You know on the prayer question, I don't know why. I guess its just a way of having communication with God showing your faith. All I know is that prayers have been answered for me. Again, its faith.

As for the Planets, yes there are trillions of stars with planets around them. Thats what I find so amazing. The way I see it is it was designed that way. Each star having its own zone where planets can have life.

I guess its like this you can show two people something and both of them will see something compelely different.

Even our own solar system, a planet like Jupiter is in the right position and right size to protect our planet against rogue comets.

gods like Zeus are mythology one of many worship.

Yes, I know you consider God to be mythical as well. I have to come back, I need to think of how to answer this one. Good question though.