Atheists and God

[gerobbins]

If I take a box of 1000 toothpicks. Open it, and dump the toothpicks onto the ground.
What are the odds that they would have landed exactly the way they landed?
How many times do you think I would have to repeat my actions to get them to land in the exact same positions, and in the exact order, as my first throw?

What are the odds? Well, as you said, they are 'way out there'.
But guess what? It did happen. Once. On that first attempt.
That is all it needs. Just once.
Therefore, the odds that it DID occur are 1:1.
Pretty good odds.

You are comparing toothpicks to life on other planets? Think about it. You have billions of planets and lets say most have the same condtions of that as earth does.

Meaning the tilt of the axis, a moon orbiting at the same distance, the perfect distance from its sun and you are saying it just happened? Ok lets see your proof that it just happened?

 

[Sunstone]

You are comparing toothpicks to life on other planets? Think about it. You have billions of planets and lets say most have the same condtions of that as earth does.

Meaning the tilt of the axis, a moon orbiting at the same distance, the perfect distance from its sun and you are saying it just happened? Ok lets see your proof that it just happened?

I think you need to study the analogy a bit more before rushing to comment on it. You don't seem to understand it at this point.

 

[gerobbins]

Yes, certainly that is a possibility. However, it is no more of a reasonable possibility than the alternative.

See, here is the thing. And I certainly don't mean to sound condescending or pedantic, presumptious even in trying to tell you how to think or debate. So, please don't take this the wrong way.

But since we have proof that the natural world exists. And since we have proof that the natural world itself can produce items not only of beauty and function, but also the natural world can produce creatures with a creative urge to duplicate the beauty and functionality found in the natural world, then why is there this tendency among some people to leap-frog via blind faith to the notion that a god was behind all of this? The alternative actually seems more reasonable, does it not? Since we can prove the existence of the natural world and since we cannot prove the existence of God, isn't it more reasonable to 'believe' in an infinite universe?

And this is where I hesitate out of a fear of sounding condecending, if you are going to agitate atheists in the debate section of a religious forum, you really should be prepared to explain why an infinite being is more reasonable than an infinite universe. And after agitating them with articles that insult and offend them, you should be prepared to do more than just fall back on, 'Well, it is all just opinion and we should agree to disagree.' It is opinion, yes. But some opinions are more solid than others; some make more sense because they are more reasonable.

Truth is, I actually agree with you. I actually hold out hope that an infinite Being, divine and holy, created and engineered all this, and I further hope that one day I get to a chance to have Him or someone who has spent some time with Him and understands it all, explain everything to me. But if I engage atheists, who have mostly rejected the notion of blind faith as a medium for acquiring knowledge or asserting proof, then I had better be prepared to bring more to the dicussion than empty conjecture and weak suppositions. I am honestly, sincerely trying to be helpful, not condescending.

IYou know what? I did not purposely go out to insult them. However, some have no problem going out of their way insulting those who do believe don't they? And their arguments have just as much empy conjecture and weak suppositions as well.
Anyways, I don't take things to heart. This is a debate forum and we are debating. Its all more about the fun of the debate anyways.

Either way no one is going to concede to the other. So we will just keep debating the issue.

 

[Magic Man]

I don't believe in coincidence, never have an never will.

Then you don't understand the world at all. Coincidences happen all the time.

I was raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school, was taught by nuns. When I became a teenager and in my early 20's I had serious doubt. It was not really until my first daughter was born that I became to believe again.

So you were never actually an atheist or agnostic; you were just a Catholic who had doubts. I was raised Catholic, too, and went to Catholic school and was taught by nuns and brothers. As a teenager I started to doubt and have questions. After a few years, I started to actually think about things, and came to the conclusions I now hold to.

Not in the Christian communitiy I have been in.

Then you should find a different Christian community. You'd fit right into the majority of them.

Have you ever been around fundementalist Christians? I am not a fundementalist but I have some in my distant family and believe me they don't hold to my point of view.

Yes, I've met plenty in real life and on here. What does that have to do with anything? Do you realize how small a percentage they are? They are not your average Christian, which is what we were talking about.

 

[gerobbins]

I think you need to study the analogy a bit more before rushing to comment on it. You don't seem to understand it at this point.

I get the anaolgy and I see what you are trying to say. I just don't happen to agree with it.

 

[Magic Man]

I am talking about the odds of life just happening on billions of planets. The odds of a planet having life by just happening without being created are way way out there.

Yes, as are the odds of an intelligent creator existing. The odds of me existing were horrendous about 100 years ago, but here I am.

 

[ninerbuff]

You are comparing toothpicks to life on other planets? Think about it. You have billions of planets and lets say most have the same condtions of that as earth does.

Meaning the tilt of the axis, a moon orbiting at the same distance, the perfect distance from its sun and you are saying it just happened? Ok lets see your proof that it just happened?

Here's a question: Why Earth? Apparently god is powerful so why not just use Neptune and create animals and individuals to withstand the atmosphere? Or Mecury or Jupiter?
One thing that is vital to life that we know of is water. Not frozen water, or steam, but water. It took 11 years to find one possible on out of the billions that are out there.

New Planet Discovered | Gliese 581G | Life Sustaining | Water | Atmosphere | Libra | Star - Oneindia News

 

[gerobbins]

Then you don't understand the world at all. Coincidences happen all the time.



So you were never actually an atheist or agnostic; you were just a Catholic who had doubts. I was raised Catholic, too, and went to Catholic school and was taught by nuns and brothers. As a teenager I started to doubt and have questions. After a few years, I started to actually think about things, and came to the conclusions I now hold to.



Then you should find a different Christian community. You'd fit right into the majority of them.



Yes, I've met plenty in real life and on here. What does that have to do with anything? Do you realize how small a percentage they are? They are not your average Christian, which is what we were talking about.

My understanding of the world is different than yours then. Because I don't believe in Coincidences does not mean I don't understand the world.
Actually, there was a time were I did not believe but for a small period, the rest of the period I was more agnostic then anything.
Like you, I came to my own conclusions as I started to think about things as well.

You see, we can look at something as see completely different.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My understanding of the world is different than yours then. Because I don't believe in Coincidences does not mean I don't understand the world.

Actually, based on what you've said here, it sounds like you believe in one single, infinitely large coincidence instead of many small coincidences.

 

[Magic Man]

You are comparing toothpicks to life on other planets? Think about it. You have billions of planets and lets say most have the same condtions of that as earth does.

Meaning the tilt of the axis, a moon orbiting at the same distance, the perfect distance from its sun and you are saying it just happened? Ok lets see your proof that it just happened?

You seem to have missed the point. The point is you're saying the odds are too high for life to have formed on its own without an intelligent creator. You're using high odds as your evidence.

In the toothpick example, the odds of having the toothpicks land exactly the way they did are astronomical, but it happened with no intelligence behind it at all. The point being highly improbably odds aren't evidence of anything.

 

[Man of Faith]

I have seen Atheists use the ToE to say there isn't a God and also tell Theists that they can believe that God used the ToE to populate the planet. :help:

The article is right on. The new Atheist is angry against God. The new Atheist wants to be God. The new Atheist attacks God with fervor. I’m not sure why they don’t attack the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause with the same fervor because they say believing in God is just like believing in them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have seen Atheists use the ToE to say there isn't a God and also tell Theists that they can believe that God used the ToE to populate the planet. :help:

Who? Which atheists, and in what context? Please provide the exact quote.

The article is right on. The new Atheist is angry against God. The new Atheist wants to be God. The new Atheist attacks God with fervor.

No atheist attacks God. Some atheists attack religion, but that's not the same thing.

I’m not sure why they don’t attack the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause with the same fervor because they say believing in God is just like believing in them.

I'm sure you can see the difference if you think about it a bit.

How often do Easter Bunny believers tried to bar non-Easter Bunny believers from public office, demand the right to talk about the Easter Bunny at your child's school assemblies, or picket outside Cadbury Creme Egg factories with pictures of dismembered rabbits?

 

[Magic Man]

My understanding of the world is different than yours then. Because I don't believe in Coincidences does not mean I don't understand the world.

Actually it does, or at least that you don't understand coincidences. But it all depend on what you define as coincidence. Saying you don't believe in coincidence just means you disagree with what some people define as coincidence. Traveling to Europe and seeing someone you know would be coincidence to most people. Are you saying you think there's something more to that, or do you agree that it's coincidence?

Actually, there was a time were I did not believe but for a small period, the rest of the period I was more agnostic then anything.
Like you, I came to my own conclusions as I started to think about things as well.

I highly doubt you actually actively didn't believe. I'm guessing it was more like you just didn't think about it much, and if asked during that period, you'd just have said you didn't know.

You see, we can look at something as see completely different.

Yes, we can. I'm not even so interested in whether or not you believe in God. What I'm interested in is your reasoning for doing so and the conclusions that has led you to.

 

[ninerbuff]

I have seen Atheists use the ToE to say there isn't a God and also tell Theists that they can believe that God used the ToE to populate the planet. :help:

How can an atheist tell a theist that god used the ToE to populate the planet when atheist don't believe in god to begin with?

The article is right on. The new Atheist is angry against God. The new Atheist wants to be God. The new Atheist attacks God with fervor. I’m not sure why they don’t attack the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause with the same fervor because they say believing in God is just like believing in them.

We do liken god to the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. And your opinion of atheist being angry at god is way off since we don't believe in god to begin with. An atheist wants to be god? :foot: Why would we want to be something we don't believe exists? And it's not god we debate against....it's the "belief" in a god we debate.

 

[gerobbins]

Here's a question: Why Earth? Apparently god is powerful so why not just use Neptune and create animals and individuals to withstand the atmosphere? Or Mecury or Jupiter?
One thing that is vital to life that we know of is water. Not frozen water, or steam, but water. It took 11 years to find one possible on out of the billions that are out there.

New Planet Discovered | Gliese 581G | Life Sustaining | Water | Atmosphere | Libra | Star - Oneindia News

Well because Neptune is not in the Goldilocks zone.
Its like standing next to a fire; stand to close you get burned, stand to far away you will be cold. Stand at the right distance and you are comfortable.

The conditions for the design are not conducive to life as we know it. Although, how do we know if there is no form of life on Neptune or Jupiter?
Jupiter's moon Europa, they feel have may have some form of life.
Planets that oribit the their stars in the Zone have the right conditions to have liquid water.


Jupiter Moon May Have Life -- Experts Urge a Mission

 

[Magic Man]

The article is right on. The new Atheist is angry against God. The new Atheist wants to be God. The new Atheist attacks God with fervor. I’m not sure why they don’t attack the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause with the same fervor because they say believing in God is just like believing in them.

There is no such thing as "the new Atheist". There are simply atheists. Atheists are not angry with God. They might be angry with people who believe in God, and they might point out problems with people's god-concepts, but they're not actually angry at God. We also don't attack God. We are critical of god-concepts and certain beliefs theists hold, though.

We don't attack the concepts such as the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus because people already understand that they aren't real. There's no reason to criticize them. If I come across an adult who believes either of those it real, I'll deal with them the same way I normally deal with God.

 

[Magic Man]

Well because Neptune is not in the Goldilocks zone.
Its like standing next to a fire; stand to close you get burned, stand to far away you will be cold. Stand at the right distance and you are comfortable.

The conditions for the design are not conducive to life as we know it. Although, how do we know if there is no form of life on Neptune or Jupiter?
Jupiter's moon Europa, they feel have may have some form of life.
Planets that oribit the their stars in the Zone have the right conditions to have liquid water.


Jupiter Moon May Have Life -- Experts Urge a Mission

I think you missed the part about God deciding Earth was perfect and not some other planet. The question was why God made the conditions we have here perfect. Why not create different life on Jupiter instead?

 

[Revoltingest]

I have seen Atheists use the ToE to say there isn't a God....

They're wrong.

....and also tell Theists that they can believe that God used the ToE to populate the planet. :help:

If there were a god, he (she? it?) appears to use evolution.

...The article is right on. The new Atheist is angry against God.

I can't imagine being angry at something which doesn't exist.
Some might be angry at what the concept of God is used for though.
Much wrong & woe have been committed in his name over the centuries.

The new Atheist wants to be God.

No. I want to be Spiderman.

I’m not sure why they don’t attack the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause.....

No one invokes them to raise my taxes or go off to war.

 

[ninerbuff]

Well because Neptune is not in the Goldilocks zone.
Its like standing next to a fire; stand to close you get burned, stand to far away you will be cold. Stand at the right distance and you are comfortable.

The conditions for the design are not conducive to life as we know it. Although, how do we know if there is no form of life on Neptune or Jupiter?
Jupiter's moon Europa, they feel have may have some form of life.
Planets that oribit the their stars in the Zone have the right conditions to have liquid water.


Jupiter Moon May Have Life -- Experts Urge a Mission

But that doesn't answer the question. An all powerful god has the power to shield us from burning or freezing by making us impervious if he wanted to, right? It's like us going to the depths of the ocean. Certain fish and lifeforms live there because of their genetic structure. So what was to stop god from creating life on any of these other planets? Make individuals heat resistant to live on Neptune (there's more, but start with that), more cold resistant to live on Uranus, etc. Again, why Earth if this powerful god could have put humans anywhere in the universe and structure them genetically to withstand any atmosphere?

 

[Eliot Wild]

I have seen Atheists use the ToE to say there isn't a God and also tell Theists that they can believe that God used the ToE to populate the planet. :help:

The article is right on. The new Atheist is angry against God. The new Atheist wants to be God. The new Atheist attacks God with fervor. I’m not sure why they don’t attack the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause with the same fervor because they say believing in God is just like believing in them.

What about the 'old Atheist'? Was he any better?

I think you're right, however, there should be atheist campaigns against the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. As a matter of fact, though I'm not really an atheist, either a new one or an old one, I am just as angry at the Easter Bunny and Santa as I am at God.

And like the new Atheist that wants to be God, I would like to be the Easter Bunny. I don't think I'd like being Santa Clause, given the fact that he is stuck up at the North Pole 364 days of the year. But the Easter Bunny, that I could handle. Nothing to do but eat chocolate and colored eggs all year round, and hang out with a bunch of kids at the mall. Doesn't seem like too hard a life.