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Atheists and Satanism
- Thread starter Orias
- Start date
So do you also not believe there is right and wrong or truth and falsehood? If there is truth there can be right and wrong. Then a person's perception of a situation would not change the truth of it being right or wrong / good or evil. We can say that mass genocide is neither good or evil because we think it is bad but fascist dictators think it is good, although I do not see how that can possibly be true. I believe there is truth, and this means that killing, raping, torturing massive amounts of people against their free will can, in no way be good, no matter who agrees or disagrees.
Of course not. Good exists as long as evil, not necessarily in balancing amounts at every place in time though. Over all, if you were to find an equation to calculate the good and evil in all of the infinite cosmos, theoretically they would be perfectly equal.
I think truth and falsehood is a different issue, but related, to good and evil.
What I was getting at was that I don't think there is some abstract concept of good and evil (i.e. a universal morality) , but that our notions of what is good and evil is based on our society, culture and beliefs. There are some things that I think all societies will agree on as being evil but that doesn't need to be the case.
There is no right or wrong, I'll give you an example:
Humanism says empathy is right and good, and proving it is they say "empathy is good", and that's just circular logic.
Another example is, a man thinks it is okay to break in my house. It isn't "good" but it isn't "bad" either, it is only bad in MY perspective, but my perspective isn't what is truly right or wrong, nor is his, nor is anyone's.
Truth in what exactly? There has to be a meaning to life in order to describe what is right and wrong, and there is no intrinsic meaning to life, thus there is no intrinsic good and evil.
Again, truth in what? And how does that lead to "killing, raping, etc" is bad? It isn't good, I agree, but I don't agree that it not being good makes it bad.
It is PEOPLE who create what is good and bad, and people have different senses of what is good and bad, therefore if someone disagrees that killing is bad, killing is not bad. Even if everyone agreed killing is bad, it still wouldn't be bad intrinsically.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
There's a difference between good and evil in terms of describing human suffering in culturally derived moral terms and the concept of an objective Good and objective Evil in conflict with each other on a universal scale.
Recently R.I. State Representative Peter Palumbo sarcastically referred to teenager Jessica Ahlquist as an evil little thing and clarified by stating that she is under the influence of evil people. What could that mean?
Other than that really has little to do with this thread.
Recently R.I. State Representative Peter Palumbo sarcastically referred to teenager Jessica Ahlquist as an evil little thing and clarified by stating that she is under the influence of evil people. What could that mean?
Other than that really has little to do with this thread.
Human suffering is evil? According to you, and many others, possibly, but it is personally bad, thus you can't say that your PERSONAL morality is better than a murderer's, because it is personal, not objective.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
I did not say that.
edit: For clarification my post was directed at TDOP's post. Take in context of his post.
Orias
Left Hand Path
Ah, so to those who don't know much how about it, how many of you know anything of atheism and how come because it is a "religion" you don't look into it?
To those who think it is restricting, I understand, taking any sort of label unto oneself is restricting, which is why I keep Satanism vague to its meaning, Opposition, Adversary, and least often Accuser.
As to what it opposes well that is simply, opposition. Just as nature tries to kill nature, from man to man to star to star.
To those who speak on the matter of it being a self centered religion, what of it? Isn't the point of religion/philosophy to occupy the self and mind with gratifying belief?
Heh...stupid and dumb. You never fail to make me giggle with clenched teeth gnommon.
So far it seems like most of you don't know much about it and don't care much for it, which is completely understandable.
So let me ask a new question, what about Christianity?
To those who think it is restricting, I understand, taking any sort of label unto oneself is restricting, which is why I keep Satanism vague to its meaning, Opposition, Adversary, and least often Accuser.
As to what it opposes well that is simply, opposition. Just as nature tries to kill nature, from man to man to star to star.
To those who speak on the matter of it being a self centered religion, what of it? Isn't the point of religion/philosophy to occupy the self and mind with gratifying belief?
Heh...stupid and dumb. You never fail to make me giggle with clenched teeth gnommon.
So far it seems like most of you don't know much about it and don't care much for it, which is completely understandable.
So let me ask a new question, what about Christianity?
shawn001
Well-Known Member
I personally prefer to think of things as good or bad or positive and negative, true or false.
I have always disliked the term evil. To me its archaic.
Definition of EVIL
1
a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2
a archaic : inferior b : causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor> c : disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>
3
a : causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : unlucky
Examples of EVIL
- She drank an evil potion.
- The city has fallen on evil days.
- It was an evil omen.
Origin of EVIL
Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil First Known Use: before 12th century
In all the above examples you could subsitute the word "bad."
Truth and Evil are usally refered to as absolutes nowadays and usally in organized religions. Whereas in good and bad there are more grey areas to consider. Or even positive and neagtive for me is better then even good or bad.
Before any religions when cave men brought back food and no one was killed by a saber tooth tiger that was good or a positive experience. If someone got killed and they got no food that was bad and a negative experience.
Organized religions took it to the "cosmic" level of the entire universe and their concepts of good and evil from human perspectives. I am sure some animals have a concept of good and bad, such as behavior in a social setting, we actually know this from observations. For example a pack of killer whales will share one salmon if they don't find enough food for the pod. To us that looks good and humanistic, but to thm it might be that way but also a means of survival and some of this good and bad behavior has a lot to do with survival.
If early humans or any animals killed everyone around them they would not have survived.
Were also finding clues with brain scans and how the brain works, what makes some people "evil/bad" or at least predisposed to bad decisions or acts that our societies hold as either good or bad.
This is close, but you need different terms, going back to the positive and negative.
". Over all, if you were to find an equation to calculate the good and evil in all of the infinite cosmos, theoretically they would be perfectly equal"
There are exactly equal amounts of positive and negative energy in the universe and they cancel each other out to exactly 0.
If one leaves the earth's biophere for life, they would find the cosmos pretty hostile to life for sure.
So would we call that evil? Or bad? Or positive or negative? Or the truth? or false? or what? In any case it could be bad to the organism effected by say solar radation or falling into a super nova. So I personally would see that analogy as a negative. Not an absolute "evil."
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Depends on the Satanism. LaVeyan is okay I guess, since most of it is sexed-up existentialism or nihilism. Theistic Satanism, obviously, strikes a chord for being theistic (though in many cases "god" is just another filler word for something else). Luciferians just get on my nerves for bringing up the whole fiasco of the continued misrepresentation of Lucifer being an angel or devil or something other than the king of Babylon.Basically what I want to observe is what recognized atheists here have to think about Satanism.
And please, if your going to be a jerk please be a soft one
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Like I had mentioned earlier, I am agnostic and don't believe in satanism or am I an atheist.
However, things like this are interesting for me to ponder from the devils dictionary, which I have not read, but have seen these clips.
"“Ghost, n. The outward and visible sign of an inward fear. There is one insuperable obstacle to a belief in ghosts. A ghost never comes back naked: he appears either in a winding-sheet or 'in his habit as he lived.' To believe in him, then, is to believe that not only have the dead the power to make themselves visible after there is nothing left of them, but that the same power inheres in textile fabrics. Supposing the products of the loom to have this ability, what object would they have in exercising it? And why does not the apparition of a suit of clothes sometimes walk abroad without a ghost in it? These be riddles of significance.”
"The Devil's Dictionary" by Bierce, Ambrose (1967)"
Souls do not Exist: Evidence from Science & Philosophy Against Mind-Body Dualism
Or as well.
I really liked Mark Twain writings
"But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most, our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every Christian's daily and nightly prayers, for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners the supremest?"
- Mark Twain's Autobiography
However, things like this are interesting for me to ponder from the devils dictionary, which I have not read, but have seen these clips.
"“Ghost, n. The outward and visible sign of an inward fear. There is one insuperable obstacle to a belief in ghosts. A ghost never comes back naked: he appears either in a winding-sheet or 'in his habit as he lived.' To believe in him, then, is to believe that not only have the dead the power to make themselves visible after there is nothing left of them, but that the same power inheres in textile fabrics. Supposing the products of the loom to have this ability, what object would they have in exercising it? And why does not the apparition of a suit of clothes sometimes walk abroad without a ghost in it? These be riddles of significance.”
"The Devil's Dictionary" by Bierce, Ambrose (1967)"
Souls do not Exist: Evidence from Science & Philosophy Against Mind-Body Dualism
Or as well.
I really liked Mark Twain writings
"But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most, our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every Christian's daily and nightly prayers, for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners the supremest?"
- Mark Twain's Autobiography
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Just for the info
Zoroastrianism
Date founded: c.6th cent. BC Place founded: Ancient PersiaFounder: Zarathustra (Zoroaster)
Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) was a Persian prophet who at the age of 30 believed he had seen visions of God, whom he called Ahura Mazda, the creator of all that is good and who alone is worthy of worship. This was a departure from previous Indo-Persian polytheism, and Zarathustra has been termed the first non-biblical monotheist. There is disagreement among scholars as to exactly when and where Zarathustra lived, but most agree that he lived in eastern Iran around the sixth century BC.
Beliefs
The Zoroastrian concept of God incorporates both monotheism and dualism. In his visions, Zarathustra was taken up to heaven, where Ahura Mazda revealed that he had an opponent, Aura Mainyu, the spirit and promoter of evil. Ahura Mazda charged Zarathustra with the task of inviting all human beings to choose between him (good) and Aura Mainyu (evil).
Though Zoroastrianism was never as aggressively monotheistic as Judaism or Islam, it does represent an original attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion comparable to those of the ancient Greeks, Latins, Indians, and other early peoples.
Its other salient feature, namely dualism, was never understood in an absolute, rigorous fashion. Good and Evil fight an unequal battle in which the former is assured of triumph. God's omnipotence is thus only temporarily limited.
Zoroaster taught that man must enlist in this cosmic struggle because of his capacity of free choice. Thus Zoroastrianism is a highly ethical religion in which the choice of good over evil has almost cosmic importance. Zarathustra taught that humans are free to choose between right and wrong, truth and lie, and light and dark, and that their choices would affect their eternity destiny.
The Zoroastrian afterlife is determined by the balance of the good and evil deeds, words, and thoughts of the whole life. For those whose good deeds outweight the bad, heaven awaits. Those who did more evil than good go to hell (which has several levels corresponding to degrees of wickedness). There is an intermediate stage for those whose deeds weight out equally.
This general principle is not absolute, however, but allows for human weakness. All faults do not have to be registered or weighed forever on the scales. There are two means of effacing them: confession and the transfer of supererogatory merits (similar to the Roman Catholic "Treasury of Merits"). The latter is the basis for Zoroastrian prayers and ceremonies for the departed.
Zoroaster invoked saviors who, like the dawns of new days, would come to the world. He hoped himself to be one of them. After his death, the belief in coming saviors developed. He also incorporated belief in angels and demons.
Zoroaster's ideas of ethical monotheism, heaven, hell, angelology, the resurrection of the body, and the messiah figure were influential on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though to what extent is not known for certain.
Zoroastrianism - ReligionFacts
Zoroastrianism
Date founded: c.6th cent. BC Place founded: Ancient PersiaFounder: Zarathustra (Zoroaster)
Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) was a Persian prophet who at the age of 30 believed he had seen visions of God, whom he called Ahura Mazda, the creator of all that is good and who alone is worthy of worship. This was a departure from previous Indo-Persian polytheism, and Zarathustra has been termed the first non-biblical monotheist. There is disagreement among scholars as to exactly when and where Zarathustra lived, but most agree that he lived in eastern Iran around the sixth century BC.
Beliefs
The Zoroastrian concept of God incorporates both monotheism and dualism. In his visions, Zarathustra was taken up to heaven, where Ahura Mazda revealed that he had an opponent, Aura Mainyu, the spirit and promoter of evil. Ahura Mazda charged Zarathustra with the task of inviting all human beings to choose between him (good) and Aura Mainyu (evil).
Though Zoroastrianism was never as aggressively monotheistic as Judaism or Islam, it does represent an original attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion comparable to those of the ancient Greeks, Latins, Indians, and other early peoples.
Its other salient feature, namely dualism, was never understood in an absolute, rigorous fashion. Good and Evil fight an unequal battle in which the former is assured of triumph. God's omnipotence is thus only temporarily limited.
Zoroaster taught that man must enlist in this cosmic struggle because of his capacity of free choice. Thus Zoroastrianism is a highly ethical religion in which the choice of good over evil has almost cosmic importance. Zarathustra taught that humans are free to choose between right and wrong, truth and lie, and light and dark, and that their choices would affect their eternity destiny.
The Zoroastrian afterlife is determined by the balance of the good and evil deeds, words, and thoughts of the whole life. For those whose good deeds outweight the bad, heaven awaits. Those who did more evil than good go to hell (which has several levels corresponding to degrees of wickedness). There is an intermediate stage for those whose deeds weight out equally.
This general principle is not absolute, however, but allows for human weakness. All faults do not have to be registered or weighed forever on the scales. There are two means of effacing them: confession and the transfer of supererogatory merits (similar to the Roman Catholic "Treasury of Merits"). The latter is the basis for Zoroastrian prayers and ceremonies for the departed.
Zoroaster invoked saviors who, like the dawns of new days, would come to the world. He hoped himself to be one of them. After his death, the belief in coming saviors developed. He also incorporated belief in angels and demons.
Zoroaster's ideas of ethical monotheism, heaven, hell, angelology, the resurrection of the body, and the messiah figure were influential on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though to what extent is not known for certain.
Zoroastrianism - ReligionFacts
Twig pentagram
High Priest
I do not interpret lucifer as an angel or devil, and to be honest most
of the luciferians that I've come across don't either.
Atheism is such a simple concept you dont have to look into it
.At the moment I am not that interested in Christianity either.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
That's reassuring.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
It's a common religion-related manifestation of the teenage rebellion phase. Seems to attract a lot of angry, young males who are outcasts and tend to be creative. Roughly equivalent to the Wicca phase for many teenage girls.
Orias
Left Hand Path
Atheism is such a simple concept you dont have to look into it
At the moment I am not that interested in Christianity either.
It is a concept, all concepts need looking into to understand it.
