Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

[Eli G]

It seems contradictory, but if you see it from this perspective you will understand:

A believer considers miracles to be the result of a display of knowledge and power on the part of a conscious person.
An atheist believes that things that exist came out of nothing in a miraculous way, obeying some natural laws that emerged out of nowhere, by themselves.

So who is the one who believes in miracles?

 

[Heyo]

It seems contradictory, but if you see it from this perspective you will understand:

A believer considers miracles to be the result of a display of knowledge and power on the part of a conscious person.
An atheist believes that things that exist came out of nothing in a miraculous way, obeying some natural laws that emerged out of nowhere, by themselves.

So who is the one who believes in miracles?

I hope your "" meant that you aren't serious - otherwise I might be in violation of the rule against misusing the funny frubal.

 

[Eli G]

A specific example: in the Bible it is said that the waters were divided and a path was dried up for the passage of the Israelites on more than one occasion, for example in the Red Sea at the exit from Egypt, and in the Jordan River when they were to enter the land of Canaan for the first time to conquer it.

When we read these passages in the past we considered them inexplicable from a natural point of view. But a few years ago scientists experimented a new application to the discovery of water dipolarity. They discovered that by applying a strong magnetic field to a volume of water, it was possible to divide that volume into two parts, leaving a completely dry space in the center.

So it turned out that what seemed like a miracle with no possible physical explanation a few years ago, the division of the waters, turned out to be a display of superior power, sufficient energy that was used to separate water based on knowledge that at that time no human possessed.

When you hear an atheist say that this was a miracle, tell him to update his physical knowledge of water dipolarity. How many more things do atheists call "miracles" because of their lack of knowledge?

But saying that life, the laws of the universe, the physical-mathematical constants, etc. arose without a "reasonable scientific" cause from an explosion, THAT is believing in miracles.

PS: The automated response manual is falling short... You should stop hiring automated handlers on this forum and start putting some real humanity into the debates. It's something like "adding value to the forum"... because you are losing a lot of value with these types of answers that are more than boring and repeated ad nauseum.

 

[ChristineM]

It seems contradictory, but if you see it from this perspective you will understand:

A believer considers miracles to be the result of a display of knowledge and power on the part of a conscious person.
An atheist believes that things that exist came out of nothing in a miraculous way, obeying some natural laws that emerged out of nowhere, by themselves.

So who is the one who believes in miracles?

A universe from nothing is only one of several (i know of 32) hypothesis for how the bb happened. As far as i know only 2 suggest a universe from nothing.

Of course they are scientific hypothesis, not atheistic hypothesis so once again you are deliberately misrepresenting atheism.

Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Nothing more, nothing less, anything else you add to that simply shows your ignorance of atheism. And i feel sorry that a misunderstanding of fact can generate so much hatred.

I really do wonder how deliberate misrepresentations stack up with the teachings of your bible?

 

[Eli G]

Atheism negates a Creator. PERIOD.

 

[ChristineM]

Atheism negates a Creator. PERIOD.

So, as i said, i know of 32 hypothesis for how the universe came into existence. All of them have scientific or mathematical merit, if they are not feasible either mathematically or extrapolation from observed or well understood phenomena then they are simply not counted as scientifically possible.

And not one of them uses the get out for free card of "i don't know so god must've done it"

Not anyone else's god, or gods. There are around 3800 creator gods have been worshiped in the history of religion, which one do you think did It?

 

[Eli G]

Yes, my words may not be technical terms, perhaps they are not liked by those referred to or related to what I describe, perhaps they seem harsh to accept or difficult to assimilate... but my words express exactly what I want to say, without cover up, honestly, and perfectly describe my ideas, not those of others.

Given that in my topics I am the one who raises the questions, it is not my words that have to be changed, but those who want to answer them have to understand them as they are posed. No, I don't misrepresent anything or use strawmen, nor do I like fallacies. I am sincere and express myself as I am, describing things as I perceive them.

So stop using personal attacks, and if you are going to participate in my topics, at least try to understand the questions before you even want to answer. Otherwise, they will continue to be ignored, because they contribute nothing. In any case, he who understands will know what I mean, and he who doesn't, then let him unclog the pipes in his brain... if he can.

When a person claims that order, beauty, organization, life, etc. come from something that has no beginning or purpose, he is saying that he believes in miracles.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, my words may not be technical terms, perhaps they are not liked by those referred to or related to what I describe, perhaps they seem harsh to accept or difficult to assimilate... but my words express exactly what I want to say, without cover up, honestly, and perfectly describe my ideas, not those of others.

Given that in my topics I am the one who raises the questions, it is not my words that have to be changed, but those who want to answer them have to understand them as they are posed. No, I don't misrepresent anything or use strawmen, nor do I like fallacies. I am sincere and express myself as I am, describing things as I perceive them.

So stop using personal attacks, and if you are going to participate in my topics, at least try to understand the questions before you even want to answer. Otherwise, they will continue to be ignored, because they contribute nothing. In any case, he who understands will know what I mean, and he who doesn't, then let him unclog the pipes in his brain... if he can.

When a person claims that order, beauty, organization, life, etc. come from something that has no beginning or purpose, he is saying that he believes in miracles.

You misrepresent atheism because you have no idea what atheism is.

When you use personal attacks against atheists in every OP you make, that's a bit hypocritical don't you think?

Nope, what they are claiming is that nature can be beautiful, it can also be harsh. And as i have already said that you refuse to acknowledge is that i know of 32 ways this universe could have formed not one includes miracles or guesswot.

 

[Eli G]

1) Curtain goes up, complete chaos. Curtain goes down.

2) Curtain goes up, a beautiful world full of life appeared. Curtain goes down.

How is the play called? "The atheistic magical and miracolous act of Nature's appearance ".

 

[ChristineM]

1) Curtain goes up, complete chaos. Curtain goes down.

2) Curtain goes up, a beautiful world full of life appeared. Curtain goes down.

How is the play called? The atheistic magical act of the miracle of creation.

1? Chaos, i thought you were advertising nothing, nevermind, confusion happens when you have no idea what you are talking about.

2? Curtain goes up about 10 BILLION+ years later. Funny how you always forget about time.

Call it what you will, certainly no god magic involved

 

[Eli G]

God is not magic.

He is a real powerful spirit person who decided to create a universe full of life and to which he dedicated a lot of love when he made it. We have an existence with purpose, starting from a Father who gave us life.

That is not magic, nor a miracle, because the power and knowledge of the Creator exceeds our limited human understanding. He could, and so he did.

Good evening to all readers...even those who I ignore.

 

[ChristineM]

God is not magic.

He is a real powerful spirit person who decided to create a universe full of life and to which he dedicated a lot of love when he made it. We have an existence with purpose, starting from a Father who gave us life.

That is not magic, nor a miracle, because the power and knowledge of the Creator exceeds our limited human understanding. He could, and so he did.

Good evening to all readers...even those who I ignore.

In your opinion.
But tell me, how is it ok for god to make a universe out of nothing without magic but it's not ok for science?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

An atheist believes that things that exist came out of nothing in a miraculous way, obeying some natural laws that emerged out of nowhere, by themselves.

Literally self-contradictory.

Also untrue.

Try harder.

 

[Eli G]

An intelligent being knows how to use resources at his disposal: knowledge, energy, create regulations, establish limits, etc. A person can even do tricks that look like magic, but are intelligent manipulation of images and laws that he knows.

"Nothingness", a void or whatever an atheist thinks existed before the origin of this universe, without intelligence, laws or order, cannot generate beautifully designed results which behave under established laws, etc.

Obviously, with God there is no magic or miracles, since He acts out of superior knowledge and power that human beings do not have. Instead of "miracles" I would use the expression "mighty works." It's like using technologies so advanced that modern humans cannot understand...

This way of understanding God as the Creator is different from the burlesque notion of "magic and miracle" that some atheists attribute to him. In fact, to believe that the universe suddenly emerged from an uncontrolled explosion, and that the order and artistic beauty of the universe came from there, you need to have a lot of magical thinking in your mind.

 

[SkepticThinker]

An intelligent being knows how to use resources at his disposal: knowledge, energy, create regulations, establish limits, etc. A person can even do tricks that look like magic, but are intelligent manipulation of images and laws that he knows.

What if god isn't an intelligent being?

"Nothingness", a void or whatever an atheist thinks existed before the origin of this universe, without intelligence, laws or order, cannot generate beautifully designed results which behave under established laws, etc.

Atheists don't think anything in particular about the origins of the universe.
Atheism is just a lack of belief in god(s). It says nothing about any other beliefs atheists may or may not hold.

Obviously, with God there is no magic or miracles, since He acts out of superior knowledge and power that human beings do not have. Instead of "miracles" I would use the expression "mighty works." It's like using technologies so advanced that modern humans cannot understand...

This way of understanding God as the Creator is different from the burlesque notion of "magic and miracle" that some atheists attribute to him. In fact, to believe that the universe suddenly emerged from an uncontrolled explosion, and that the order and artistic beauty of the universe came from there, you need to have a lot of magical thinking in your mind.

The Big Bang wasn't an "uncontrolled explosion."

The universe is filled with all kinds of ugly things, as well as beautiful things. Many religious folks seem to want to ignore the ugly things and imagine that only the beautiful things exist, created by the specific god they believe in, but can't demonstrate the existence of.

 

[Eli G]

Simple logic:

Heb. 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.

I do not need to philosophize about the existence of a Creator; it is obvious He exists. The earth is like a house in the entire Universe, and it takes a lot of stubbornness and blindness not to realize that it must have had a Creator.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"Nothingness", a void or whatever an atheist thinks existed before the origin of this universe, without intelligence, laws or order, cannot generate beautifully designed results which behave under established laws, etc.

1) No, that's not a claim atheists make. For all we know, there could never have been "nothing", and "nothingness" may not even be a possible state of existence.

2) Even if nothingness WERE a possible state of existence, can you prove definitively and demonstrably that the appearance of "beautifully designed results" cannot be a consequence of nothing?

 

[Quintessence]

As a theist whose theology doesn't include any sort of "creator" I am very confused by this thread. Does this mean I also believe in miracles more than other theists?

Nah.

 

[Eli G]

...Even if nothingness WERE a possible state of existence, can you prove definitively and demonstrably that the appearance of "beautifully designed results" cannot be a consequence of nothing?

It is you who need to "prove definitively and demonstrably" that it happened in a different than the logic way.

 

[ChristineM]

Simple logic:

Heb. 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.

I do not need to philosophize about the existence of a Creator; it is obvious He exists. The earth is like a house in the entire Universe, and it takes a lot of stubbornness and blindness not to realize that it must have had a Creator.

Or a basic understanding of cosmology.

So what you are saying that natural forces cannot make a universe out of nothing. But a god, for which there is no evidence for its existence can make a universe out of nothing. ?