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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I already made mention of these and how you needed more than a series of symbols scratched without apparent order on various cave walls. These are symbols that suggest a language, but there is no indication that they are part of a written language.

You have suggested you not only know these represent a language, but that you know the language. How is that possible?

You speak as if you know this language intimately and can make rational and reasoned claims about it. How is that possible?

Then you jump 35000 years into the future and start calling ancient Egyptian language this ancient language of yours without establishing the initial language existed and connecting it with Egyptian.

Wow! and shaking my head is about all I have for this.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
You once related a tale to me regarding your creation of a new species of fly by killing all but those that landed on the underside of a table.

You didn't indicate that you determined what species of fly you were working with or that it was a single species population. You didn't express any expertise in dipterology or fly behavioral biology. You seem to have assumed that landing on the underside of a table was some new, previously unrecorded behavior that must be from some recent mutation. At least you never mentioned this one of many critical pieces of information that you would need to know to say anything about your lunchtime dipteracidal spree. There are so many things that you didn't do or determine that you needed to do in order to come to the conclusion that you created a new species of fly.

All that can be said is you killed a few flies to fill time during a lunch.

Flies have been known to land on the underside of objects for a very long time. It isn't a new now and wasn't a new discovery when you made it for yourself.

But you delivered it as if you had done exactly what you claimed and without any evidence other than the tale.

That told me a lot about the sort of science and scholarship I was dealing with.

So you're not impressed that early farmers knew nothing about Darwin yet they were smart enough to breed with the crops and animals that gave the best results for the purpose they desired? (I think that makes sense but I'm not happy with "purpose they desired")
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I mightta also have mentioned ancient writing says they used linear funiculars to build the pyramids and this has allowed me to make accurate predictions about what physical evidence would be found years before it was found.
They said this 35,000 years before the pyramids and Egyptians or is this more of your 40,000 year old language was Egyptian thing?
This same writing suggests the individuals who invented agriculture used a theory regarding change in species and knew nothing about Darwin or survival of the fittest.
That's terrible. Are you suggesting that Darwin plagiarized a language that isn't known to exist. The dastardly fiend.

Or perhaps those ancient Homo sapiens took advantage of their own observations and learned some basic principles that Darwin later codified into a theory.
Of course the FACT they invented agriculture doesn't prove their version was the correct one. It certainly does suggest we're confused though.
There version of agriculture? Their language? There contact with the mother ship? What is it you are talking about and what do you claim they were confused about?

Experience tells me not to expect an answer with evidence, but the delivered truth of the repeated claim.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I mightta also have mentioned ancient writing says they used linear funiculars to build the pyramids and this has allowed me to make accurate predictions about what physical evidence would be found years before it was found. This same writing suggests the individuals who invented agriculture used a theory regarding change in species and knew nothing about Darwin or survival of the fittest.

Of course the FACT they invented agriculture doesn't prove their version was the correct one. It certainly does suggest we're confused though.
I don't think they had a research division that was suddenly mandated to develop a system of agriculture. At least there is no evidence of anything as unexpected as that.

What seems to have happened based on the evidence that we have is that over time through trial, error and observation agriculture was developed. What we do see fits with the theory of evolution that you constantly claim without evidence is wrong, wrong, wrong.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I already made mention of these and how you needed more than a series of symbols scratched without apparent order on various cave walls. These are symbols that suggest a language, but there is no indication that they are part of a written language.

You have suggested you not only know these represent a language, but that you know the language. How is that possible?

You speak as if you know this language intimately and can make rational and reasoned claims about it. How is that possible?

Then you jump 35000 years into the future and start calling ancient Egyptian language this ancient language of yours without establishing the initial language existed and connecting it with Egyptian.

Wow! and shaking my head is about all I have for this.

I'm trying to find information on consistent ancient symbols/doodles and have not been able to uncover anything.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm trying to find information on consistent ancient symbols/doodles and have not been able to uncover anything.
There's young researcher that has published on these things. I should have the references somewhere. I'm surprised that @cladking hasn't posted them already. No. I'm just kidding. What I would be surprised about is that he has read them.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
So you're not impressed that early farmers knew nothing about Darwin yet they were smart enough to breed with the crops and animals that gave the best results for the purpose they desired? (I think that makes sense but I'm not happy with "purpose they desired")
I think not all of us understand that or want that to be the best explanation of the evidence. Apparently some want a secret society of super-scientists that only vocabular of 2,000 words. How that would be determined, I have no idea. Perhaps they disseminated information by gastric lavage and the Food Network.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm trying to find information on consistent ancient symbols/doodles and have not been able to uncover anything.
Doodling. That seems to be a good description. Some of those aren't dissimilar to doodles I did in school as a child.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You once related a tale to me regarding your creation of a new species of fly by killing all but those that landed on the underside of a table.

You didn't indicate that you determined what species of fly you were working with or that it was a single species population. You didn't express any expertise in dipterology or fly behavioral biology. You seem to have assumed that landing on the underside of a table was some new, previously unrecorded behavior that must be from some recent mutation. At least you never mentioned this one of many critical pieces of information that you would need to know to say anything about your lunchtime dipteracidal spree. There are so many things that you didn't do or determine that you needed to do in order to come to the conclusion that you created a new species of fly.

All that can be said is you killed a few flies to fill time during a lunch.

Flies have been known to land on the underside of objects for a very long time. It isn't a new now and wasn't a new discovery when you made it for yourself.

But you delivered it as if you had done exactly what you claimed and without any evidence other than the tale.

That told me a lot about the sort of science and scholarship I was dealing with.

I am aware the breadth of my ignorance is extensive. No, not just the ignorance of our entire species but mine goes beyond this because I don't even try to know anything beyond metaphysics and a few subjects that interest me. Indeed, knowledge, especially book knowledge can be an impediment to me. I appreciate all experiential knowledge and metaphysics. This makes my experiments and observations quite interesting to me.

One summer I battled houseflies in a common area in a public place where food was prepared and eaten and was dirty. I would periodically grab a flyswatter and murder every fly I saw. Several observations came from this but the most relevant one was that each time I killed a smaller percentage of all the flies that were buzzing about when I started. Some would head for the hills and some would land under tables and chairs. They were not only displaying individual intelligence, which was hardly surprising to me, but subsequent generations had increasing percentages that lived under the furniture except to come out and feed.

I've seen these same things in other "species". Mosquitos can practically smell my mosquito sump since large percentages of entire generations have been eradicated in them. I could probably make a million with a simple patent on it. You just need to dump the few day old larvae on the ground.

We see insects as unconscious drones much as Darwin did despite the fact we can even interpret Bee Language now. I find it obvious insects are intelligent (smarter than some people I know), but we downplay any intelligence that can't manipulate abstractions. If a chimp can't elaborate on "I think therefore I am" then the lack of appropriate response is interpreted to mean chimps can't think. This isn't far wrong but it's highly misleading in a world where we've deluded ourselves into believing there's such a thing as "intelligence" and by God we got it!

All experiment including my own suggest that life is consciousness and that it's consciousness which determines survival. Consciousness is natures way not only to ensure individual survival but through the capriciousness of nature leads to change in species which occurs suddenly like all other known change in life on the individual and "species" level. Science doesn't take years to change its mind but rather bides its time until some famous scientific foot dragger shuffles off the mortal coil. This is life. Sudden change defines life and consciousness. Just as a summer intern could prove linear funiculars he might also invent upside down flies. It never takes long for the world to be stood on its ear.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I agree with your main point: historical fiction is not history.

I'll ask you the same thing as I asked Subduction Zone. Do you really find meaning in those books? I've read them both, enjoyed them with their characters and feats of daring and hubris, but that's also Star Wars, which also taught me nothing. Nor Harry Potter, nor The Hobbit. It's all just entertainment to me.

Digression: An interesting distinction between all of these books just mentioned and the Bible is that nobody ever says that one need divine assistance to understand them or a special way of reading them. Maybe that's because nobody's trying to believe that they aren't just stories. Throw in that any of these come from a god, and that's when we hear that from the believers if someone tells them that they're just the words of man and are often vague, ambiguous, incorrect, or self-contradictory. That's when the magical reading method is, and anybody who sees these things just doesn't know the proper way to read them.
If you are asking me, do I agree with the bible the answer is absolutely no. That mythology has nothing to do with me. Do I accept the mythology I use then yes, it is truth to me. The fairy tales carry powerful messages that was lost for so long. Carl Jung saw it but still remained on the Christian side from what I can tell. The story of the hobbit has amazing truth within it but one must open up to what Tolkin was trying to tell us. Harry potter contains some very interesting mythology whether the author really understood it. To give an example of what I mean the myth of the goddess Boann who becomes the Boyne River of Ireland has incredible wisdom in it. It tells us the greatest wisdom of our world comes from the natural world and not from some supernatural being. It is the spring of Segis with the hazelnuts that fall into it and represent the 5 senses we have. Boann is dismembered in the spring and becomes the river Boyne. Thus, in her sacrifice she emerges as something greater that permeates the land of Ireland connecting all things. For someone on journeying in the pagan path, all wisdom comes from nature which means that evolution is exactly what the shaping forces of nature can do without any influence of any supernatural whatever. Thus, they Irish myths contain truths of relationship which is amazingly connected to our world. The problem has been in a western culture of rational view could not understand their message because the message was never literal. It is poetic, metaphorical and it is own way magical. I hope this answers your question if not i will try to do better.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Last edited:

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I am aware the breadth of my ignorance is extensive. No, not just the ignorance of our entire species but mine goes beyond this because I don't even try to know anything beyond metaphysics and a few subjects that interest me. Indeed, knowledge, especially book knowledge can be an impediment to me. I appreciate all experiential knowledge and metaphysics. This makes my experiments and observations quite interesting to me.

One summer I battled houseflies in a common area in a public place where food was prepared and eaten and was dirty. I would periodically grab a flyswatter and murder every fly I saw. Several observations came from this but the most relevant one was that each time I killed a smaller percentage of all the flies that were buzzing about when I started. Some would head for the hills and some would land under tables and chairs. They were not only displaying individual intelligence, which was hardly surprising to me, but subsequent generations had increasing percentages that lived under the furniture except to come out and feed.

I've seen these same things in other "species". Mosquitos can practically smell my mosquito sump since large percentages of entire generations have been eradicated in them. I could probably make a million with a simple patent on it. You just need to dump the few day old larvae on the ground.

We see insects as unconscious drones much as Darwin did despite the fact we can even interpret Bee Language now. I find it obvious insects are intelligent (smarter than some people I know), but we downplay any intelligence that can't manipulate abstractions. If a chimp can't elaborate on "I think therefore I am" then the lack of appropriate response is interpreted to mean chimps can't think. This isn't far wrong but it's highly misleading in a world where we've deluded ourselves into believing there's such a thing as "intelligence" and by God we got it!

All experiment including my own suggest that life is consciousness and that it's consciousness which determines survival. Consciousness is natures way not only to ensure individual survival but through the capriciousness of nature leads to change in species which occurs suddenly like all other known change in life on the individual and "species" level. Science doesn't take years to change its mind but rather bides its time until some famous scientific foot dragger shuffles off the mortal coil. This is life. Sudden change defines life and consciousness. Just as a summer intern could prove linear funiculars he might also invent upside down flies. It never takes long for the world to be stood on its ear.
We are all ignorant of things. It isn't your ignorance that is the issue. It is that you don't speak with any thought to what you don't know and you state things as fact without support.

There is no indication that the behavior of flies is expressing the action of intelligence. Which, by the by, you claim doesn't exist anyway. The evidence supports that flies respond to stimuli and are not thinking and understanding with the intelligence of even a friendly hound or a rabbit in your yard. What you have is an unfounded assumption of intelligence that does not hold up.

You claim to have followed this fly population for generations and recorded percentages based on some unspoken criteria. What criteria? How did you determine species? How did you determine generation time? What was the influence of migration and the introgression of genes from foreign populations of the same species? How did you account for the variables you didn't control? Temperature? Time of day? Geography? Time of year or season? Resource availability? The genetic evidence that would support that a change in genome occurred? Anything on this?

It sounds like you drew some spurious conclusions based on what you wanted and not on anything you observed and recorded.

I have watched dragonflies lay eggs on the hood or roof of car, because they are stimulated by the reflected light and color in the same way they would be to reflection on a body of water. I have read about masses of aquatic beetles that drop from the sky onto parking lots for the same reason. The reflection stimulates a response.

If all experiment shows that life is conscious, then you should be publishing and have body of literature and observations to show this. As well as a well-defined definition of consciousness that fits beyond flies. I haven't seen you produce anything like that. It just seems you have a feeling and have elevated it all the way up to a fact without the bother of that pesky little thing called study, literature review or experiment with a much better design.

There is no evidence that consciousness is driving species change. There is no evidence that consciousness was involved in your so called "experiment". Other than your own and it is drawing conclusions that are wildly biased in my opinion. There is no evidence that speciation is sudden. The evidence says gradual. Even that punctuated equilibrium that you have heard about doesn't posit sudden change. The change was over a long period of time with a much longer period of stasis.

Your idea of sudden change has been routinely falsified. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is.

I don't see any reason to consider that you did much to the local fly population other than kill a portion of it. As to your thoughts on Egyptology and pyramids, I'm not really all that interested. Except to say alleged success at one minor claim does not promote a knowledge of all things in one individual or a group of them.

This is just more of your revealed truth and I have no reason to consider it. I don't really think there is much we can discuss, since you refuse to provide anything to support your claims except more claims and nebulous rambling. I've done my bit, but I'm tired and what interest I've had I've lost for reaching for the impossible dream.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll have a look shortly. I'm currently unblocking a drain. If my breeding downs weren't over my offspring would be a new species with plungers for hands.
I was going to write something funny, but plumbing is no laughing matter. Good luck.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
The gospels where Greco-Roman biografies..... This means that the author's where "trying" to describe what they thought was true about Jesus's life and teachings

The gospels are full of embarrassing details that played against the purposes of such documents .... For example many aspects of Jesus where inconsistent with the messianic expectations of that time.......if the gospels are just made up fairy tails ... Why would the author's create a character that fits those expectations.



The Odesy is just science fiction. Homer was not even trying to report historical events
You are so wrong about the Odessey, It is a myth of truth to the Greek people who celebrated this religion. It is full of wisdom if you know how to understand it. If you look for an absolute account of history then you missed its entire meaning.
The gospels are myth to show relationship. Any attempt to try and fit them into an actual historic event is to completely misunderstand their meaning. This obsession of making the gospels and the bible to be literal is a disconnection to their meaning. Hopefully you are wise enough to be able and tell the difference. A person that understands these myths can accept science and evolution as real because they do not attempt to apply it as fact rather than wisdom.
 
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