Atheists have faith.

[ecco]

I am offering that most of the great prosperous civilizations are built upon a God given Messages and the virtue and moral contained in those Messages.

I am also offering that the downfall of those civilizations is when people as a whole start to move away from those morals and virtues to practice their own versions.

Hmm.


Ancient Rome might be a good example. While the Romans had and worshipped many different gods, Rome did well.

When Constantine tried to push everyone to worship Jesus, Rome began its death spiral.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Aren't you contradicting yourself?
If I'm not mistaken you (a Bahai) believe Mohammed was one of God's Messengers who came.

If I'm not mistaken, Mohammed did not believe Jesus was God (or any part thereof).

I see no contradiction.

Muhammad made it clear that Jesus was a Messenger of God. The Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have clarified what the Bible and Quran were offering.

Jesus in flesh was not God. Jesus as Christ was all we can know of God, yet Jesus as Christ in no way defines God as Jesus as Christ defines the attributes for us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you ignorant of the fact that the people of Mexico are overwhelming religious Catholics? That includes members of cartels.

Drug Cartels Influenced By Faith?

The war on drugs in Mexico has left thousands of dead, despite the ongoing efforts by President Felipe Calderon to curb the violence. Even after the deployment of the military, gang members throughout the country have been estimated to be in the hundreds of thousands. Being lured by fast money, many new recruits sign in trying to break away from poverty or prolonged unemployment. But for one drug gang, faith has been the key. La Familia Michoacana has turned to religion for years to recruit within its ranks, by persuading its members that they're doing God's work.
​

Are you ignorant of the fact that the people of the Middle East are overwhelming religious Muslims? That includes members of ISIS and the Taliban who have no problem beheading anyone with opposing religious or political views.

I can assure you that is an entire lack of faith that motivates those actions as true faith is shown in virtues and deeds, all evil is the lack of those virtues and deeds.

So your post is just supporting what the OP is exploring.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

What is the motivation and where does that motivation come from.

I responded to that quite a ways back. The motivation to do right comes from members of the civilization recognizing that it is better for the individual and for society to do the right things more often than not.

Many species of mammals understand this concept.

The motivation for religious folks to do away with members of other religions comes from Religions.
German Christians: German Jews
English Catholics: English Protestants
American Protestants: American Mormons
Iraqi Sunnis: Iraqi Shiites.
The list goes on and on. All in the name of a god.

 

[ecco]

I see no contradiction.

Of course not. Religious blinders have magical properties.

Muhammad made it clear that Jesus was a Messenger of God. The Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have clarified what the Bible and Quran were offering.

Muhammed did not believe Jesus was god/part.
You believe Jesus is God/part.
Either you or Mohammed are wrong.
According to your beliefs, Mohammed was God's Messenger and wrote the words God told him to write.
Why did the Bab and Baha'u'llah need to clarify what God had spoken to Mohammed? Was God unclear?

Jesus in flesh was not God. Jesus as Christ was all we can know of God, yet Jesus as Christ in no way defines God as Jesus as Christ defines the attributes for us.

You end up talking in word salad when cornered.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmm.


Ancient Rome might be a good example. While the Romans had and worshipped many different gods, Rome did well.

When Constantine tried to push everyone to worship Jesus, Rome began its death spiral.

Rome was already fallen, that is why Jesus the Christ gave a Message. It is Materialism that brings the fall of civilizations, if they do not balance it in spiritual morals, virtues and deeds.

Look at the Colosseums, I see the same happening in professional football sports in this age. We have reached the decadence of those times and the empire will again fall. This time it will be global.

We have been warned over and over.

Stay safe, stay well, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why did the Bab and Baha'u'llah need to clarify what God had spoken to Mohammed? Was God unclear?

No it is men like us that make it unclear.

Consider, many are more happy with their views, than that of a Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

 

[Kooky]

Hmm.


Ancient Rome might be a good example. While the Romans had and worshipped many different gods, Rome did well.

When Constantine tried to push everyone to worship Jesus, Rome began its death spiral.

The Roman Empire's fall post-dates Constantine's death by more than a thousand years. That's a rather long "death spiral", with many ups and downs and periods of strengthening and resurgence, to the point where I think the term "death spiral" has lost any meaning when applied to that context.

In short: Nope, not at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You end up talking in word salad when cornered.

Actually that is children class material taught as the Sun and Mirror analogy.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

I can assure you that is an entire lack of faith that motivates those actions as true faith is shown in virtues and deeds, all evil is the lack of those virtues and deeds.

You cannot assure me of anything. You obviously do not understand the religious motivations that influence cartel members or Sunnis or Mormons or members of the KKK. All you are doing is pretending that bad cannot come from believers. Nonsense!.

So your post is just supporting what the OP is exploring.

So your post is just supporting your incorrect, unsupported opinions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You cannot assure me of anything. You obviously do not understand the religious motivations that influence cartel members or Sunnis or Mormons or members of the KKK. All you are doing is pretending that bad cannot come from believers. Nonsense!.


So your post is just supporting your incorrect, unsupported opinions.

I will leave you to your thoughts.

All the best Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

The Roman Empire's fall post-dates Constantine's death by more than a thousand years. That's a rather long "death spiral", with many ups and downs and periods of strengthening and resurgence, to the point where I think the term "death spiral" has lost any meaning when applied to that context.

In short: Nope, not at all.

"A thousand years"? I guess my math capabilities have greatly diminished.

In 313 AD, the Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which accepted Christianity: 10 years later, it had become the official religion of the Roman Empire.

By 476, the position of Western Roman Emperor wielded negligible military, political, or financial power, and had no effective control over the scattered Western domains that could still be described as Roman.​

Or, perhaps, yours have.

 

[ecco]

Actually that is children class material taught as the Sun and mirror analogy.

Really?

Then you should have no problem explaining exactly what all that means, in your own words, of course.

 

[ecco]

I will leave you to your thoughts.

As you have done so many times when faced with having to come to grips with facts that make you feel uncomfortable because you cannot address the issues raised without violating your beliefs.

 

[Kooky]

"A thousand years"? I guess my math capabilities have greatly diminished.

In 313 AD, the Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which accepted Christianity: 10 years later, it had become the official religion of the Roman Empire.

By 476, the position of Western Roman Emperor wielded negligible military, political, or financial power, and had no effective control over the scattered Western domains that could still be described as Roman.​

Or, perhaps, yours have.

(my emphasis)

The Byzantine Empire, also referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantium, was the continuation of the Roman Empire in its eastern provinces during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, when its capital city was Constantinople. It survived the fragmentation and fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD and continued to exist for an additional thousand years until it fell to the Ottoman Empire in 1453. During most of its existence, the empire was the most powerful economic, cultural, and military force in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
(not my emphasis)

The Eastern Roman Empire was even based in the city named after Constantine, presumed death spiral terminator of the Roman Empire.

The name "Byzantine Empire" is an anachronism, by the way, and was invented by a French historian; the actual name of the empire was Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων, or "Empire of the Romans", and its imperial line was a direct continuation from Constantine's days. In fact, the primary reason why we consider 476 the Fall of the Western Empire at all, is because the Eastern Emperor refused to accept Odoacer's offer to proclaim himself a vassal of the Eastern Empire. The Fall of the Western half of the Roman Empire is a lot more complicated than simplistic "death spiral" theories might suggest.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As you have done so many times when faced with having to come to grips with facts that make you feel uncomfortable because you cannot address the issues raised without violating your beliefs.

That is not why

You answered my OP with your replies. I see faith did not motivate any of your responses.

Regards Tony

 

[Kooky]

Rome was already fallen, that is why Jesus the Christ gave a Message. It is Materialism that brings the fall of civilizations, if they do not balance it in spiritual morals, virtues and deeds.

That's also not true, by the way.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Really?

Then you should have no problem explaining exactly what all that means, in your own words, of course.

Jesus in flesh was not God - Jesus is a name on one of the Mirrors

Jesus as Christ was all we can know of God - All we can know of God is the Ray's we see reflected from the Mirror

Jesus as Christ in no way defines God - The sun is not defined by the mirror or from the rays reflected from the mirror.

Jesus as Christ defines the attributes for us - the rays from the mirror are all we can know of God, they are the Holy Spirit.

God has never has decended into creation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's also not true, by the way.

Yes agreed, it was a very, very broad statement. This OP was not about a history lesson and it was not anything to do with the OP.

Ecco only needs to advise where the motivation comes from, for virtue, moral and deeds for one's own self.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The non-existence of gods certainly can be discerned from facts.

The concept that all gods are the creations of man's imaginings certainly can be discerned from facts.

Can you prove that? If not, it is just a personal opinion, NOT a fact.

fact

something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:

fact