Atheists have faith.

[Subduction Zone]

If you chiise to be an Athiest to do the same, then that is also great, In this life all will be good.

Regards Tony

When it comes to a rational belief there is no choosing.

 

[Scoop]

This OP was inspired by a response in another post.

What is it to have Faith?

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith. I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

It could be seen that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God.

Could that be a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it?

Does this free a person from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends?

Personally I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 182

" Every person must have an occupation, a trade or a craft, so that he may carry other people's burdens, and not himself be a burden to others."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 3

Faith is a service to all we cross paths with, without faith, one can deprive themselves from such service. With Faith our heart longs to be of this service.

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self.

So that is the debate, but is it really a debate?

Do you give of yourself to others?

As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes?

Regards Tony

P/S Edited as the purpose is to explore our actions against faith, it is not to bash an atheist. Sorry it was not well worded.

No. I'm sorry to have to be the one to point this out, but when Agnostics/Atheists use the word "faith", we usually mean a position that one holds without some kind of evidence-based reason or justification, especially if that position is dogmatic, is based on assumptions, not actual observations, and/or is considered true regardless of contradictory evidence. By this definition, most people don't hold faith based positions outside of religion and politics.

This is kind of "Atheists have faith too" argument is also a common straw man, and I don't recommend using it in a debate, as you'll probably get laughed at or something.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. I'm sorry to have to be the one to point this out, but when Agnostics/Atheists use the word "faith", we usually mean a position that one holds without some kind of evidence-based reason or justification, especially if that position is dogmatic, is based on assumptions, not actual observations, and/or is considered true regardless of contradictory evidence. By this definition, most people don't hold faith based positions outside of religion and politics.

This is kind of "Atheists have faith too" argument is also a common straw man, and I don't recommend using it in a debate, as you'll probably get laughed at or something.

That's OK I do not mind being laughed at.

Where do you think virtues, morals and the desire to good deeds come from?

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

Where do you think virtues, morals and the desire to good deeds come from?

Mostly from humanity who showed such virtues long before religion grabbed them for its own selfish purposes. Also many other animals show differing degrees of such virtues. They certainly are not the sole domain of religion. Who in my view often take those virtues and distorts them to exclude any non believer in their particular brand of faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Mostly from humanity who showed such virtues long before religion grabbed them for its own selfish purposes. Also many other animals show differing degrees of such virtues. They certainly are not the sole domain of religion. Who in my view often take those virtues and distorts them to exclude any non believer in their particular brand of faith.

I think there is more proof for the source of virtues eing faith based.

But I see that is not a direction you will pursue, so more than happy to leave it at agree to disagree.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

I think there is more proof for the source of virtues eing faith based.

But I see that is not a direction you will pursue, so more than happy to leave it at agree to disagree.

Regards Tony

Sounds like confirmation bias to me, consider, hive animals, herd animals, flocks, all have there moral values without religion

In the case of humanity, without those virtues they would not have been able to form civilisations in which religion could develop.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the case of humanity, without those virtues they would not have been able to form civilisations in which religion could develop.

Most civilizations were built on the following

"Although early civilizations differed, they had several characteristics in common:

• Developed cities
• Organized government
• Formalized religion
• Specialization of labor
• Social classes
• Record keeping and writing
• Art and architecture

Spoiler: link

https://en.m.wikiversity.org/wiki/Human_Legacy_Course/Foundations_of_Civilization#:~:text=A civilization is a complex,valleys, the rivers flooded annually.

The virtues were introduced on a formal spiritual level.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

Most civilizations were built on the following

"Although early civilizations differed, they had several characteristics in common:

• Developed cities
• Organized government
• Formalized religion
• Specialization of labor
• Social classes
• Record keeping and writing
• Art and architecture

Spoiler: link

https://en.m.wikiversity.org/wiki/Human_Legacy_Course/Foundations_of_Civilization#:~:text=A civilization is a complex,valleys, the rivers flooded annually.

The virtues were introduced on a formal spiritual level.

Regards Tony

I am talking developing civilisation, not developed. The virtues allowed humanity to form civilisations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am talking developing civilisation, not developed. The virtues allowed humanity to form civilisations.

I am offering that most of the great prosperous civilizations are built upon a God given Messages and the virtue and moral contained in those Messages.

I am also offering that the downfall of those civilizations is when people as a whole start to move away from those morals and virtues to practice their own versions.

In the end, it is up to us to see if that is the case or not.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

I am offering that most of the great prosperous civilizations are built upon a God given Messages and the virtue and moral contained in those Messages.

I am also offering that the downfall of those civilizations is when people as a whole start to move away from those morals and virtues to practice their own versions.

In the end, it is up to us to see if that is the case or not.

Regards Tony

And i am offering, without those morals civilisation would not have developed to allow religion to flourish and take those morals and bastardise them so as to exclude anyone not of the specific religion.

Actually the reasons for the downfall of civilisations are many and varied.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And i am offering, without those morals civilisation would not have developed to allow religion to flourish and take those morals and bastardise them so as to exclude anyone not of the specific religion.

Actually the reasons for the downfall of civilisations are many and varied.

Round and round we go, I do wish you all the best ChristineM, but I will leave you on this ride, I can not keep up, I get dizzy way too quickly.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

Round and round we go, I do wish you all the best ChristineM, but I will leave you on this ride, I can not keep up, I get dizzy way too quickly.

Regards Tony

Bye, but please note the fact that humans were moral animals long before the development of religion.

 

[wandering peacefully]

If you chiise to be an Athiest to do the same, then that is also great, In this life all will be good.

Regards Tony

Seriously? Ok let's play decipher Baha,,,'h double speak. And I'm only playing along because that seems to the the only way you all are able to communicate.

I know you all are not dumb so it comes down to honesty in speech and thoughts.

In my observations, you all really believe in what you believe. However, none of you are able to accept any ideas outside of your CHOSEN beliefs.

You refused to even acknowledge my link to humanism, let alone form s thought, comprehend the rationale or give an investigative thought on the ideals which you could communicate back as to your understanding of secular humanism. That is a "choice" you make.

If you can independently research the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, you may find your true callings as it is the same system in all aspects but title as your bahai choice.

Let's move on to decipher your double speak; which clearly is the foundation of Baha'I communication and thought. Iow baffle them with bs.

1. "If you chiise (choose) to be an atheist "

No atheist ever chooses to be an atheist. There is zero choice in accepting the reality of reason and observation. You either accept reality as it is shown through scientific observations and multiple peer reviewed studies on the question at hand or you do not. You either accept what is also in front of your face, or you add some biased thoughts to make the situation into what you want and "choose" to believe that.

That is your choice of faith and it gnorance through faith. Not the atheist's.

Rational thinking involves being able to accept knowledge from repeatable, testable, observations. All the while being understanding that those unknowns in the equations are not set in stone and are subject to change through new and reliable evidence. it does not involve taking every religious. talking head claimant at their word about their knowledge about obviously, totally, unknowables such as Gods and what those gods want..

That is where choice comes into play and the idea of what you choose to believe is all up to your personal idea of what real is

Rational thinkers need more than the faith of wishful thinking to make choices about what is reality and what is make beliefs

If you choose not to accept known reality, you have faith in the unknown and are ignorant of what is known so far.

That is my counter argument for your assumption that atheists "choose".

#2. atheists choices to be moral and ethical are great and somehow they chose those without beliefs in gods. Too bad they are still going to suffer an eternity because they refuse to acknowledge my God.

Some atheists are only adopting the morals given to them via my god in order to mimic the actual superior god moral codes of believers in Gods and particularly the Bahais.

(Of course feigning all the time you truly believe that all major religious dogmas are true)

#2

"If you are a good atheists all will be good for you in this life."

Double speak for "but you will still suffer an eternity away from my God even if you are better than all of us combined in your deeds and actions in this life".

Double speak for;

"While you are out busting your *** trying your hardest to help save nature and humanity, you are still going to hell because you lack belief in my god stories, I'm sitting on my fat *** in front of a computer pretending to speak for an unknowable God and that makes me special in my own eyes and I'll live for eternity in some imaginary place for ever and ever once I get the hell off this miserable planet and out of this miserable life".

That is the honest belief you have. If you'll only be honest.

No thanks.

 

[Scoop]

That's OK I do not mind being laughed at.

Where do you think virtues, morals and the desire to good deeds come from?

Regards Tony

To be completely honest with you, I don't know of any rational, objective means by which we can go about answering that question. We simply can't address questions like that without making assumptions, using circular logic, and/or abandoning The Scientific Method.
We all just have to be okay with holding a fundamentally irrational position, I guess.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To be completely honest with you, I don't know of any rational, objective means by which we can go about answering that question. We simply can't address questions like that without making assumptions, using circular logic, and/or abandoning The Scientific Method.
We all just have to be okay with holding a fundamentally irrational position, I guess.

I would offer I see my position is very rational.

That is because the Messenger offers themselves as an example of the required virtue and morals and in this day we have even been given the standard in a person named Abdu'lbaha. We have been given a life that was offered as the standard for us to study.

I must say, the life I have studied is next to flawless, but there are a couple of recorded episodes that some may have issues with.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Seriously? Ok let's play decipher Baha,,,'h double speak. And I'm only playing along because that seems to the the only way you all are able to communicate.

I know you all are not dumb so it comes down to honesty in speech and thoughts.

In my observations, you all really believe in what you believe. However, none of you are able to accept any ideas outside of your CHOSEN beliefs.

You refused to even acknowledge my link to humanism, let alone form s thought, comprehend the rationale or give an investigative thought on the ideals which you could communicate back as to your understanding of secular humanism. That is a "choice" you make.

If you can independently research the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, you may find your true callings as it is the same system in all aspects but title as your bahai choice.

Let's move on to decipher your double speak; which clearly is the foundation of Baha'I communication and thought. Iow baffle them with bs.

1. "If you chiise (choose) to be an atheist "

No atheist ever chooses to be an atheist. There is zero choice in accepting the reality of reason and observation. You either accept reality as it is shown through scientific observations and multiple peer reviewed studies on the question at hand or you do not. You either accept what is also in front of your face, or you add some biased thoughts to make the situation into what you want and "choose" to believe that.

That is your choice of faith and it gnorance through faith. Not the atheist's.

Rational thinking involves being able to accept knowledge from repeatable, testable, observations. All the while being understanding that those unknowns in the equations are not set in stone and are subject to change through new and reliable evidence. it does not involve taking every religious. talking head claimant at their word about their knowledge about obviously, totally, unknowables such as Gods and what those gods want..

That is where choice comes into play and the idea of what you choose to believe is all up to your personal idea of what real is

Rational thinkers need more than the faith of wishful thinking to make choices about what is reality and what is make beliefs

If you choose not to accept known reality, you have faith in the unknown and are ignorant of what is known so far.

That is my counter argument for your assumption that atheists "choose".

#2. atheists choices to be moral and ethical are great and somehow they chose those without beliefs in gods. Too bad they are still going to suffer an eternity because they refuse to acknowledge my God.

Some atheists are only adopting the morals given to them via my god in order to mimic the actual superior god moral codes of believers in Gods and particularly the Bahais.

(Of course feigning all the time you truly believe that all major religious dogmas are true)

#2

"If you are a good atheists all will be good for you in this life."

Double speak for "but you will still suffer an eternity away from my God even if you are better than all of us combined in your deeds and actions in this life".

Double speak for;

"While you are out busting your *** trying your hardest to help save nature and humanity, you are still going to hell because you lack belief in my god stories, I'm sitting on my fat *** in front of a computer pretending to speak for an unknowable God and that makes me special in my own eyes and I'll live for eternity in some imaginary place for ever and ever once I get the hell off this miserable planet and out of this miserable life".

That is the honest belief you have. If you'll only be honest.

No thanks.

Personally I see all things in life are based in choice, people can say they do not choose to be an athiest until they are blue in the face, I will still offer I disagree, so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

That really is not a Baha'i Faith stance, it is one I would take well before I was a Baha'i and did not practice any faith. I have always considered that there is intelligence design to creation.

I like the video of the fellow with amazing memory that sees numbers in shapes and confounds all the scientific theories about memory.

Brainman will have to be directed to YouTube.

You offered a lot of heated stuff in that reply, that personally I do not see has been offerd in this OP, nor was it the intent.

So hope you have got that off your chest?



So you see that living the virtues shown in deeds is not born out of anything to do with faith, so that's great, I wish you all the best.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

Faith that what they do is the right thing to do.

So, Hitler was doing his thing because he had faith OK.

Jesus also said that True Prophets would again come, and that only those that accepted the New Name would see that to be so.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?
If I'm not mistaken you (a Bahai) believe Mohammed was one of God's Messengers who came.

If I'm not mistaken, Mohammed did not believe Jesus was God (or any part thereof).

 

[ecco]

God exists is not the kind of knowledge that can be discerned from facts.

The non-existence of gods certainly can be discerned from facts.

The concept that all gods are the creations of man's imaginings certainly can be discerned from facts.


However, "God exists" cannot be discerned from facts. If it could, it probably would have been since so many people have tried to present "facts" to support the concept of all manner of supernatural entities.

 

[ecco]

How about the way the Drug Cartels live their lives, without following law on these matters, they set their own laws and they are happy and content with their life, do we choose those standards? If not why not, what human can say their choices are wrong?

Are you ignorant of the fact that the people of Mexico are overwhelming religious Catholics? That includes members of cartels.

Drug Cartels Influenced By Faith?

The war on drugs in Mexico has left thousands of dead, despite the ongoing efforts by President Felipe Calderon to curb the violence. Even after the deployment of the military, gang members throughout the country have been estimated to be in the hundreds of thousands. Being lured by fast money, many new recruits sign in trying to break away from poverty or prolonged unemployment. But for one drug gang, faith has been the key. La Familia Michoacana has turned to religion for years to recruit within its ranks, by persuading its members that they're doing God's work.
​

Are you ignorant of the fact that the people of the Middle East are overwhelming religious Muslims? That includes members of ISIS and the Taliban who have no problem beheading anyone with opposing religious or political views.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, Hitler was doing his thing because he had faith OK.

It's possible, it would have been misguided faith in his own opinions though so whats the point?

This OP is about virtue and turning virtues into deeds.

What is the motivation and where does that motivation come from.

Regards Tony