Atheists have faith.

[URAVIP2ME]

Just try to convince a Christian of that logical fact.........

When Jesus was speaking to his disciples, please explain for us what Jesus was saying at Luke 19:11-15 .

 

[Trailblazer]

When Jesus was speaking to his disciples, please explain for us what Jesus was saying at Luke 19:11-15 .

I do not know what those verses mean. What do you believe they mean?

 

[CG Didymus]

It does not matter who the Lamb is because Revelation is not referring to Jesus since Jesus is not coming back to earth.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

Again, why do you take this literally when you don't take other verses literally? And do you believe John the apostle wrote this gospel? If not, who did and why would we trust him as being accurate on quoting things that Jesus had supposedly said? Are similar verses where he says "it is finished" found in other gospels? If you believe it was John that wrote it, when did he write it? How many years after the events did he write it? Was he quoting the exact words of Jesus or telling his version of the Jesus story... with a few embellishments and liberties with the facts?

Now the "Lamb" is a central character in Revelation. It might matter. And you say it is not referring to Jesus, great. Then who is it referring to? Do you agree with Tony's guess that it is the Bab? For being a manifestation of God, the Bab is hardly mentioned by Baha'is. Why would he be the main character in Revelation?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is a few places where Jesus gives the signs of a True Prophet.

We can also consider that is what is awaited by many Christians.

I see so much time has been wasted on proving every prophet is false, that no time is spent on determining the True.

I John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

This is talking of Prophets as it offers there has been many false prophets, but the true one will confess that Jesus came in the flesh, that Jesus was Christ (Annointed One), Annointed of the Holy Spirit, given of God

So the Antichrist are those that do not see Jesus is the Christ, Annointed of God with the Holy Spirit. They have taken on the station of a prophet, by giving their own version of Jesus, they are the many false prophets.

So a Baha'i will offer that Jesus came in flesh, was (Christ) Annointed of the Holy Spirit, so the flesh Jesus was Christ, the 'Self of God'.

The Bible offers those that can confess that, are of God and the only way we can do this is to understand who Jesus was.

Regards Tony

There's more than one verse we should look at. What else do Baha'is use to show that Jesus told of "True Prophets"?

 

[CG Didymus]

It has been offered that that the Bab was the Lamb in this age, and also the Gate who was the Elijah for Baha'u'llah, who was the Glory of God, the shepherd of the One fold.

Regards Tony

And what verses do Baha'is use, and how do they interpret them to make the "Lamb" the Bab?

 

[CG Didymus]

Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah have all confessed that the flesh Jesus was annointed of the Holy Spirit and was a Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

So you say that Jesus told of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Which other verses are Baha'is using? Also, did Jews predict and expect four "Messiahs"?

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus (the Lamb) could have had in mind the words of Joel 2:28-29,32 since the time of Pentecost at Acts of the Apostles 2:16-18,21. They would be the genuine ' wheat' separated from the fake 'weed/tares' followers of Jesus.
They would carry out Jesus instructions to internationally tell about God's kingdom - Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:14.
The mention of the New Name is found at Revelation 3:12 B; Revelation 14:1.

Baha'is believe that this "new Name" is a reference to their prophet Baha'u'llah. But they also believe that since the coming of Jesus, there's been two other "new names", Muhammad and the Bab? They mix and match prophecies to make either the Bab or Baha'u'llah the fulfillment.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you read the verses I posted from Revelation there the Lamb is: Jesus.
However, yes the Messengers who are resurrected to Heaven are like the people of Revelation 2:10; 20:6; 5:9-10.
They are like the people of Luke 22:28-30, and called to be as ' saints or holy ones ' as found at Daniel 7:18.

Tony is talking about "manifestations" and calling them "Messengers". So these are people like Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Muhammad and of course their two prophets.

 

[CG Didymus]

I know the struggle

And guess which interpretation Baha'is believe in? They do the same thing. Theirs is the true one. And that is the question. Why is their right and the other ones wrong?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When Jesus was speaking to his disciples, please explain for us what Jesus was saying at Luke 19:11-15 .

This is the quote and I am happy to give a few thoughts, my own take, as there is no official Baha'i view on these passages.

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Firstly in verse 11 it can be considered that Jesus is telling them that the Kingdom of God does not appear like an instant miracle, that it unfolds over time and offers a parable as to how it does and will unfold in the future.

Verse 12 can be seen as a prophecy that a Messenger of God comes and leaves a trust and then departs with the promise to return.

Verse 13 seems to be offering that the trust was that Message and they were to live by it until the promise was fulfilled.

Verse 14 appears to be saying most of them did not want to live by that word and eventually live by their own rules and understandings.

Verse 15 can be seen as the return, and the invitation to the new Message and how much faith was gained by the practice they had previously claimed and are to be judged by that practice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And guess which interpretation Baha'is believe in? They do the same thing. Theirs is the true one. And that is the question. Why is their right and the other ones wrong?

If there is One God for all humanity, and Baha'u'llah was the one promised in all religions, then would that answer the question?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony is talking about "manifestations" and calling them "Messengers". So these are people like Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Muhammad and of course their two prophets.

It is worth consideration as to how many Christains think that they are the Prophets being spoke of in the Bible, just because they say we beleive.

Personally I see that is the opposite of humility.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There's more than one verse we should look at. What else do Baha'is use to show that Jesus told of "True Prophets"?

This has been covered in great detail in pasts threads, so let's leave that for this OP.

Why do you see atheists would practice moral and virtues, which obviously is more a spiritual choice over material benefits?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, why do you take this literally when you don't take other verses literally? And do you believe John the apostle wrote this gospel? If not, who did and why would we trust him as being accurate on quoting things that Jesus had supposedly said? Are similar verses where he says "it is finished" found in other gospels? If you believe it was John that wrote it, when did he write it? How many years after the events did he write it? Was he quoting the exact words of Jesus or telling his version of the Jesus story... with a few embellishments and liberties with the facts?

I do not need to know all of that. Even if John was not accurate there is not one single verse in the entire New Testament where Jesus says He is coming back to earth, so in light of that it makes sense that the plain meaning of these verses in John are correct. The same Jesus is not coming back to earth in the same body, period.

Now the "Lamb" is a central character in Revelation. It might matter. And you say it is not referring to Jesus, great. Then who is it referring to? Do you agree with Tony's guess that it is the Bab? For being a manifestation of God, the Bab is hardly mentioned by Baha'is. Why would he be the main character in Revelation?

I agree with Tony, the Lamb is the Bab.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And what verses do Baha'is use, and how do they interpret them to make the "Lamb" the Bab?

Have you read the story of the Bab. If so you would know that everything a Christian would use to demonstrate that Jesus was the Lamb, would also be mirrored in the life and Message of the Bab. Except, the Bab has much more to offer, as there is many more prophecies pointing to the time of the Bab, than to the time of Jesus.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you say that Jesus told of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Which other verses are Baha'is using? Also, did Jews predict and expect four "Messiahs"?

I do not see that the Jews did expect that more Messages would unfold before they embraced the Messiah.

The Old Testament does hint to them, but they were a distant future, and Jesus was yet to come.

Jesus offered that if you beleive in Moses you would beleive in me, but they did not. As such all what Jesus taught about the Messengers to come is not considered by a Jew.

The same happened with Muhammad, the Christains do not have the bounty of what was offered by Muhammad, then what was offered by the Bab.

Hindsight is useful, but not all will use it to its full potential.

Regards Tony

 

[John53]

And guess which interpretation Baha'is believe in? They do the same thing. Theirs is the true one. And that is the question. Why is their right and the other ones wrong?

No idea. I only became aware of Baha'i a few years ago and I've never really looked into it. I'm not even sure how to pronounce it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No idea. I only became aware of Baha'i a few years ago and I've never really looked into it. I'm not even sure how to pronounce it.

You have to be a member of the ultimate inner circle to know this secret, but what the heck:

It is pronounced "tadpole".

 

[wandering peacefully]

The virtues are a spiritual manifestation of our capacity to be more than an animal.

I see all moral and ethical standards practiced that build civilization can be traced to a spiritual message and lack of those morals and standards can be traced back to our rejection of the standards brought by spiritual messages from God.

So you started a thread pretending to want to know why atheists don't have or need religious faith yet can still be moral and ethical humans. You were given the answers by many atheists yet here you are again denying their responses.

It appears your only real interest was an opportunity for more proselytizing . Got it.

How many times do you believe people will fall for your supposed questions and take time to try to help you with your lack of understanding when you just continue to ignore the answers?

I'm not wasting any more of my efforts. Keep spreading your ignorance about atheists and faith. If you need to have faith in a God to behave like a moral and ethical human being then by all means, have faith. Lots of faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not wasting any more of my efforts. Keep spreading your ignorance about atheists and faith. If you need to have faith in a God to behave like a moral and ethical human being then by all means, have faith. Lots of faith.

If you chiise to be an Athiest to do the same, then that is also great, In this life all will be good.

Regards Tony