Atheists have faith.

[We Never Know]

People who don't believe god/deity exists.

Nope. Its those who lack the belief in a diety. There is a difference.

 

[We Never Know]

Why do you want to believe in religions?

I would guess same as you chose not to. Its personal choice.

 

[We Never Know]

Why do you want to believe in religions?

Why do you believe/have faith in a party?
You have faith in a party that's in lets say 50 years that hasn't delivered.

Some are indoctraned to a religion and some are indoctraned to a party.

If neither deliver, why have faith in either?

 

[The Hammer]

And it has to be actual things. For example a person can't have faith in the Tooth Fairy. It's true even if you really, really believe in the Tooth Fairy.

2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

 

[We Never Know]

2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

In my opinion faith is believing in the unknown, which we all do.
We all believe our kids will grow to be great, that we will wake up tomorrow, that we will arrive to work tomortow, etc.
None of that is known or promised, we have faith they will happen.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see a big distinction between faith, as an example of confidence, and religious faith, which is a belief in a supernatural.

We can have great confidence in those things we have tested and verified. Have confidence in the love of my wife, for example. I have confidence my car will start. I have confidence that my computer will work.

Is it possible my confidence will be misplaced? Absolutely. I know it is possible that my car won't start tomorrow. I know it is possible for my computer not to work. And it is possible that the feeling my wife has for me have changed.

But *religious faith* is a different type of thing altogether. One of the big aspects of religious faith is belief in spite of the lack of evidence. It is also belief through confirmation bias, for example.

As IANS said above, confidence is 'justified faith' and I see religious faith as being 'unjustified' because it *cannot* be justified. There is no way to really test a religious belief.

So, the reason I am an atheist (I have no belief in any supernatural or in deities) is precisely the lack of evidence for deities or a supernatural. I do not have religious faith because I demand better evidence than religious faith can provide.

Morality and aesthetics are not parts of faith in my mind. I neither have confidence nor do I have religious faith in either.

I guess what I am exploring here is the motivation to do things that are more then self motivated. We could say that doing things for others is the reward and I would agree with that. But this really goes beyond an animal nature, what is it that brings these virtues from us, where is it that we find more than is nature and nurtured and observations of the senses.

The quotes I offered in the OP basically say that if we pursue life by working hard in all honesty and virtue, for the good of all, then we have in reality, found what is faith in God.

Endless debates about what is God really go nowhere, because no one can prove God in argument. But it appears we can prove God in deeds.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess what I am exploring here is the motivation to do things that are more then self motivated. We could say that doing things for others is the reward and I would agree with that. But this really goes beyond an animal nature, what is it that brings these virtues from us, where is it that we find more than is nature and nurtured and observations of the senses.

The quotes I offered in the OP basically say that if we pursue life by working hard in all honesty and virtue, for the good of all, then we have in reality, found what is faith in God.

Endless debates about what is God really go nowhere, because no one can prove God in argument. But it appears we can prove God in deeds.

Regards Tony

Why do you think that a God is necessary or even evinced by those actions?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We humans get our morals from two sources ─ evolution and learning.

On the evolutionary side, we see tendencies appropriate to us as gregarious primates, routinely benefiting from cooperation: first, and not unusually, child nurture and protection. Then dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. Also evolved are our conscience and our capacity for empathy.

The rest of our morals we acquire from our upbringing, culture, education and experience.

So the capacity for decency is not dependent on views regarding religion.

And that, to me, seems like religious practitioners trying to say that non-believers are acting under religion anyway.

Frankly, that sounds a bit presumptuous.

I have seen quotes in scriptures where believers are warned that some people without a faith do actually have a better grasp of what it means, even if they are not aware of this. (My summary, not written this exact way)

In the end I see faith is defined by our actions and lives. Baha'u'llah said if Religion causes division, then we are better off without it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't consider evolution to be shallow.

Neither do I, I see evolution is as a species though, that our capacity is part of that evolution and that is why we can manipulate Nature and are not bound by it.

Sorry Tony but I don't really understand what you're trying to say here and a quote is only an opinion. What I take from what you've written is that not all heroes wear capes but I'm assuming I'm wrong.

I see the quote is offering that there will be many people that are good at practicing faith, that do not necessarily have a religion and it is those actions that define us, not what we call ourselves.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We humans get our morals from two sources ─ evolution and learning.

On the evolutionary side, we see tendencies appropriate to us as gregarious primates, routinely benefiting from cooperation: first, and not unusually, child nurture and protection. Then dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. Also evolved are our conscience and our capacity for empathy.

The rest of our morals we acquire from our upbringing, culture, education and experience.

So the capacity for decency is not dependent on views regarding religion.

Ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is seeing someone who claims to be so morally superior with supernatural insight via God and who spends countless hours on an internet forum with atheists, failing so miserably at judging the actual character and morals of those atheists.

I suggest you ask what atheists are doing to try to improve the long history of religious immorality., bigotry, self-ighteousness and degradation of the planet all carried out in the name of their imaginary Gods.

What is it you are actually doing to improve these wrongs? What are you doing to save nature or help your fellow humans? I can say that repeating childish myths about the evil atheists on an internet forum doesn't make for a moral or ethical person. Repeating words from a long dead crazy man does nothing except make people like that feel better about their own useless and miserable lives.
Atheists have more morals and ethics in their little toenails than most self proclaimed, superior religionists who have nothing to contribute to improving the actual lives of others or the planet and instead sit around posting childish lies about atheists on an internet forum.

Good that you picked up the fact that the OP needed rewording. I have done so.

Luckily I am happy for such a reply, as it shows I need better writing skills. The intent of the OP was to show that Atheists can indeed live a life that a person of Religion tries to live in Faith, and as such, can we then conclude that the Atheists, without knowing it, are indeed strong in faith based works?

Regards Tony

 

[Watchmen]

I guess what I am exploring here is the motivation to do things that are more then self motivated. We could say that doing things for others is the reward and I would agree with that. But this really goes beyond an animal nature, what is it that brings these virtues from us, where is it that we find more than is nature and nurtured and observations of the senses.

The quotes I offered in the OP basically say that if we pursue life by working hard in all honesty and virtue, for the good of all, then we have in reality, found what is faith in God.

Endless debates about what is God really go nowhere, because no one can prove God in argument. But it appears we can prove God in deeds.

Regards Tony

You are confounding morality and faith. Motivation to act morally exists without faith and without god. Acting morally does not prove faith or god. You’re simply applying your belief system to a set of facts when the reality is that the atheist acts good (and often better than the religious) for a variety of reason (evolution, parental instincts, and so on). I recommend you read Sam Harris.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you insist on capitalizing faith? Do you do the same with trust? With envy, greed, lust, keen interest?

Are you trying to insist that there is something extra-special magical about "faith" when all it ever means to me is "trust and confidence?"

It is in the nature of humans, especially those with some vocabulary, to use synonyms and other word choices when the context makes it appropriate -- without it actually taking on any additional meaning.

No real reason, I was not good at English. Faith is a wonderful thing and faith can move mountains. I think that is right use of the Capitals

"I lent money to a friend, but no worries, I trust he'll pay me back. He always has before."

"I have faith that when I'm sick, my lover will take care of me, though this hasn't happened yet. I know he has faith that I'll take care of him, because this has happened, and I've spent the last several years getting him through the devastation of very severe GBS."

But despite the choice of words, there's no magic in the use of the word "faith" over "trust." Just the context makes it a better literary choice -- nothing more than that.

I see the word faith incorporates words such as trust, love, empathy, justice, compassion etc. This is what the OP is exploring.

For me to practice my religion, I need to be strong in these aspects of faith.

Regards Tony

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We humans get our morals from two sources ─ evolution and learning.

On the evolutionary side, we see tendencies appropriate to us as gregarious primates, routinely benefiting from cooperation: first, and not unusually, child nurture and protection. Then dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. Also evolved are our conscience and our capacity for empathy.

The rest of our morals we acquire from our upbringing, culture, education and experience.

So the capacity for decency is not dependent on views regarding religion.

What I am thinking is that Evolution is one of things we take on Faith, there is no solid answer as to the source of our evolution.

Nature and Nurture I see can bring the best out of us, or bring the worst out of us, so what does it take to make the conscious effort to do naught but the good? Does that require a level of faith?

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

What I am thinking is that Evolution is one of things we take on Faith, there is no solid answer as to the source of our evolution.

Nature and Nurture I see can bring the best out of us, or bring the worst out of us, so what does it take to make the conscious effort to do naught but the good? Does that require a level of faith?

Regards Tony

We don't need to know the source for life to know that evolution is a fact. You have effectively admitted that evolution is a fact by trying to move the goalposts to abiogenesis. But evolution itself works regardless of the source of life.
And you might be surprised at how many of the problems of abiogenesis have been answered. It is becoming quite clear that that is the answer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What I am thinking is that Evolution is one of things we take on Faith, there is no solid answer as to the source of our evolution.

Nature and Nurture I see can bring the best out of us, or bring the worst out of us, so what does it take to make the conscious effort to do naught but the good? Does that require a level of faith?

Regards Tony

No. This is wrong. The uneducated may take evolution on faith. Those that study the science do not

I can see how you might have to take it on faith. I don't, and you too could learn how we know that we are a product of evolution.

I am so sorry, but this was so wrong that I had to answer it twice

 

[RestlessSoul]

I guess what I am exploring here is the motivation to do things that are more then self motivated. We could say that doing things for others is the reward and I would agree with that. But this really goes beyond an animal nature, what is it that brings these virtues from us, where is it that we find more than is nature and nurtured and observations of the senses.

The quotes I offered in the OP basically say that if we pursue life by working hard in all honesty and virtue, for the good of all, then we have in reality, found what is faith in God.

Endless debates about what is God really go nowhere, because no one can prove God in argument. But it appears we can prove God in deeds.

Regards Tony

One can prove God in one’s own heart, I have no doubt of that. And having done so, one can seek to become a living example of God’s love in action; but neither you nor I can open the heart or mind of another to God, if the other is not willing.

As you rightly say, one simply cannot prove God using logic and reason. And for some people there is only logic and reason, which ironically they may cling to as an article of faith.

 

[Subduction Zone]

One can prove God in one’s own heart, I have no doubt of that. And having done so, one can seek to become a living example of God’s love in action; but neither you nor I can open the heart or mind of another to God, if the other is not willing.

As you rightly say, one simply cannot prove God using logic and reason. And for some people there is only logic and reason, which ironically they may cling to as an article of faith.

Convincing oneself is not the same as proving. If it was a proof one could convince any rational person.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Even when they contradict each other?

I do not see a contradictions, especially as that is what this OP is all about. That Faith is actually defined by our actions in life.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do not see a contradictions, especially as that is what this OP is all about. That Faith is actually defined by our actions in life.

Regards Tony

We could get into specifics, but the odds are that you will cherry pick. Religions do that quite often. They count the hits and ignore the misses. That allows people to believe almost anything that they want to.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I appreciate the apology.

But you're playing fast and loose with the word "faith." Living life in service to others has to do with what we value, ie valuing the well-being of others. I value the well-being of others because a) I have empathy and can understand why, if I don't want to suffer, others would not want to suffer either, and b) I see that life is better for everyone when we, as a whole, cooperate and support each other instead of fighting and harming each other. That doesn't require "faith," the evidence for it is ubiquitous.

Do you see the difference?

I mentioned in other replies that I see there are many levels of faith, so ther are many ways we can answer this.

It is written in my religion that “By faith is meant, first, conscious knowledge, and second, the practice of good deeds.”, It also says that reason is “the first faculty of man” it also notes that reasoning power “singles man out from among created beings, and makes of him a creature apart.”

I am offering is that that the good we do, is the evidence of faith.

I found this from Abdul'baha, "There are three kinds of Faith: first, that which is from tradition and birth. For example: a child is born of Muhammadan parents, he is a Muhammadan. This faith is weak traditional faith: second, that which comes from Knowledge, and is the faith of understanding. This is good, but there is a better, the faith of practice. This is real faith."

So knowledge of the virtues and then when we practice of them, they will pass on the good, then does this indicate we have faith in the attributes?

Regards Tony