Atheists, Humanists - a verse for you!!

[leov]

They wrote to justify their belief from an ancient worldview perspective.

Technically correct, they knew only their cosmos, but principles like "spirit ant truth" being true source stay.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I

Valentinian Teaching on Sin - Valentinus and the Valentinian Tradition
St. Paul was proto-Valentinian.

Did you even bother to read what the document said? It does NOT state that ignorance = sin. It says that ignorance OF GOD = sin. Those are two completely different things.

 

[leov]

Did you even bother to read what the document said? It does NOT state that ignorance = sin. It says that ignorance OF GOD = sin. Those are two completely different things.

That was what I said too, in one of my answers. We talking here about spiritual issues and that is why I clarified too. (Mess.#33).

 

[InChrist]

Ignorance, imo, is general term, it leads to not connecting to the source .

I agree, but I also think since the scriptures state that sin is lawlessness, this indicates that often there is a deliberate choice to refuse or break connection to the source, beyond ignorance.

 

[InChrist]

Good for Him, I guess? Who cares? Please answer me... why would this matter? If He suddenly stopped, would I even know that it was Him doing the stopping? He would literally have to come in front of my face and let me know He had been the source of my heart beats and breaths, and then tell me that He was now going to take it away, and then follow through and stop my breathing and heart beating for me to know that He was the one responsible. So... let Him go ahead and do so, if that's what He wants. Well? Where is He at? I'm waiting. How long do you think before He shows up? Oh, He won't? Of course He won't.

You theists talk a big, huge game... but you have nothing to actually bring to the field. Nothing but specious words and laughably empty promises. It's ridiculous.

If you are more than merely a physical being you would know and care. Have you ever sincerely asked God to reveal to you whether He exists?

 

[leov]

I agree, but I also think since the scriptures state that sin is lawlessness, this indicates that often there is a deliberate choice to refuse or break connection to the source, beyond ignorance.

keep going down: lawlessness because of not knowing (wilfully or not) True God and because of this missing the target (sinning). English is not good language to express meaning of sin, faith, love, perfection, and many other definitions it takes people away from real core of meaning.

 

[InChrist]

keep going down: lawlessness because of not knowing (wilfully or not) True God and because of this missing the target (sinning). English is not good language to express meaning of sin, faith, love, perfection, and many other definitions it takes people away from real core of meaning.

Which passage are you referring to?

I think that the Bible indicates that since the law was given and since God's laws are written on our consciences then people do know when they sin and are without excuse.

 

[leov]

Which passage are you referring to?

I think that the Bible indicates that since the law was given and since God's laws are written on our consciences then people do know when they sin and are without excuse.

bible is not something cast in concrete. It matches evolution of consciousness , e.g. followers of JC are above consciousness of Cain.

 

[shunyadragon]

You misunderstand roots of Abrahamic religions. It is about changing consciousness and bringing nature of men to acceptable by God level, it starts with removing state of ignorance.

This may be, but this does not reflect your misuse of sin=ignorance which is simplistic and misleading. No sin is not equivalent to nor related to ignorance.

 

[leov]

This may be, but this does not reflect your misuse of sin=ignorance which is simplistic and misleading. No sin is not equivalent to nor related to ignorance.

Sorry, I do not accept this, I miscalculated how familiar people are with Gnostic terminology, that may be the case. Ignorance, lack of knowledge. OP is Bible verse so hence a tone of conversation.

 

[shunyadragon]

Sorry, I do not accept this, I miscalculated how familiar people are with Gnostic terminology, that may be the case. Ignorance, lack of knowledge. OP is Bible verse so hence a tone of conversation.

Of course, you not accepting this does not go beyond your own particular personal perspective on what is sin.

Tone of conversation does not define any relationship between sin and ignorance. You are equating a vague anecdotal concept 'believed' by some Christians as the reality of the nature of sin and more correctly expressed as human wrongful acts.

 

[leov]

Of course, you not accepting this does not go beyond your own particular personal perspective on what is sin.

Tone of conversation does not define any relationship between sin and ignorance. You are equating a vague anecdotal concept 'believed' by some Christians as the reality of the nature of sin and more correctly expressed as human wrongful acts.

Greek language state that they also means "error in understanding",
I suggest they just sinning.

 

[shunyadragon]

Greek language state that they also means "error in understanding", I suggest they just sinning.

You may suggest, but that has little relevance, and your Greek understanding is too vague.

It reminds me of the joke that the hard preacher told the boy who was misbehaving around the women in the church, and said, "You keep doing that and you will turn to stone."

The boy responded, "Can I do it until I feel something getting hard?'

 

[leov]

You may suggest, but that has little relevance, and your Greek understanding is too vague. It reminds me of the joke that the preacher told the boy who was misbehaving around the women in the church, and said, "You keep doing that and you will turn to stone."

The boy responded, "Can I do it until I feel something getting hard?'

You forgot that we discuss something that written in Greek. Greek conveys the message of NT the best.

 

[shunyadragon]

You forgot that we discuss something that written in Greek. Greek conveys the message of NT the best.

Fit the NT best? Rest assured not all Christians consider your view fits the NT best. Your definition is still vague and anecdotal. and as I said before is based on your religious belief in a narrow context of what you believe sin represents, which I could never accept this narrow anecdotal subjective view based on one Greek definition and use of ignorance. There reality of what is ignorance is none other than simply a lack of information in Greek or any other language.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If you are more than merely a physical being you would know and care. Have you ever sincerely asked God to reveal to you whether He exists?

Back when that was still possible, yes. It no longer is because there is no way I can accept such foolishness, nor can I partake. I learned my lessons by trying, for a short time, to believe like all the people around me were doing. But in my experience, and with the evidence I have seen many, many multiple times in interactions with many, many believers - God only answers those willing to sincerely delude themselves.

 

[sealchan]

Very odd. What if? . . . is meaningless.

. . . besides conflating and misrepresenting science. Shotgun logic?!?!?!

Storybook logic...powerful stuff!

 

[Milton Platt]

Romans 2:9-16

There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not for the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law but doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that the law is written in their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all. NRSV

Takaway: Everyone will be judged by their own values.

Glad I'm neither Jewish nor Greek......

I think this is referencing the Old Testament law, along with the modifications and clarifications in other Jewish writings. Are you saying we should all follow the ancient Jewish laws?

 

[shunyadragon]

keep going down: lawlessness because of not knowing (wilfully or not) True God and because of this missing the target (sinning). English is not good language to express meaning of sin, faith, love, perfection, and many other definitions it takes people away from real core of meaning.

I believe you are creating a high fog index that does not exist. Regardless of the language of the world should be able to express the meaning of sin, faith, love, prefection, and other words. If not than Christianity and the Bible fails to be a universal message of what Christianity claims. In reality it does fail for being anchored in ancient culture as you describe, but that is another story.

 

[leov]

I believe you are creating a high fog index that does not exist. Regardless of the language of the world should be able to express the meaning of sin, faith, love, prefection, and other words. If not than Christianity and the Bible fails to be a universal message of what Christianity claims. In reality it does fail for being anchored in ancient culture as you describe, but that is another story.

It is not fog, Paul , for example, was proto - Valentinian Gnostic, Valentinian speak his what Paul meant, it is not an obscure sect. Good ref. E. Pagels " Gnostic Paul".