Atheists: If God existed would God……

[RAYYAN]

Do you think you have the choice to decide whether a God exists or not?

No, you don't have a choice. If he exists then he exists it is not a matter of a choice of anyone
However, you can choose to worship him or ignore that

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, it proves that many (most?) of us share this opinion. I'm interested in why you seem to dismiss these opinions. Do YOU know why you dismiss them?

Many (most) atheists and you? Why would it matter what your opinion of me is? Why would your opinions of my beliefs matter? Personal opinions do not deem anything true or false. If there were many Baha'is on this thread they would share my opinions. Would that mean that my beliefs are true?

I dismiss your opinions because I disagree with them. I believe in Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith so this is not about ME and my opinions. It is about what I believe. Go after that if you want to but going after me as a person only exposes you for the kind of people you are.

Or maybe we point out what we believe are your errors because that's what one does in the course of a discussion. Is it your opinion that you ought to be exempt from this ancient practice of exchange of views?

Why is it then that most people on this forum -- including most atheists -- do not point out what my errors?

No, personal criticism is not what one does in the course of a discussion unless they are disrespectful and rude. Moreover it is not necessary to point out another person's faults in order to debate a topic. The proof that it is not necessary is that most people do not resort to it.

There are only a few people like that here and they stick together like glue. They care not about the feelings of anyone, they care only about proving they are right. This is the epitome of arrogance.

“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)

“Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy . . . Beware, beware that any one rebuke or reproach a soul, though he may be an ill-wisher and an ill-doer.”
(Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of Abdu’l-Bahá v1, p. 44)

 

[Trailblazer]

My opinion is limited to my personal belief about what we all observe you doing.

No, it is not we all. It is only a handful atheists and one Christian on this thread who agree with you. Most atheists do not behave like those who agree with you because that can hold their ground in an argument so they don't need to resort to personal criticisms. They do not need to knock me down to raise themselves up. They have respect for other people because they have a good character.

You need to keep referring to your cronies because you cannot even stand on your own two feet. That's sad really.

 

[Trailblazer]

If he exists then he exists it is not a matter of a choice of anyone

God either exists or not. What atheists believe about God does not have any bearing on that.
This is the logic that atheists do not understand, yet they call themselves logical.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again you make an error by misrepresenting observations as mere opinion. We critics, atheists and believers, point out the same observations of your errors of thinking.

Your observations are mere opinions. I see that you continually refer to your cronies and you cannot just speak for yourself. That you need support for your position is very telling.
Do you see any other Baha'is on this thread?

Why are you compelled to point out the errors in MY thinking?
Baha'u'llah knew why people do that and that is how I know why.

44. O Companion of My Throne!
Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep. Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed. Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom forevermore.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[F1fan]

Not initially, no.

So, not at all.

I meditated as a child, and came to the conclusion that there must be something responsible for the "coincidence" of my existence.

Why assume a God? Why didn't you study the cognitive and behavioral sciences instead?

I came into contact with the Bible, first through society .. other people .. churches, and then had a good education by a teacher who had a degree in theology from Cambridge University at my secondary school.
Praise G-d, I know I was fortunate.

That's pretty typical for most of us, we were exposed to it through other people. Why did you think it's true? Did someone tell you it was true?

 

[Trailblazer]

@PureX said: So the bar is being set so high that it's virtually impossible to meet.

Sheldon said: For an omniscient omnipotent deity, that seems a rather idiotic assertion,

There is nothing idiotic about it. An omniscient omnipotent God could meet the bar, but only if He chose to meet it. Try to think about why.
What is idiotic is atheists expecting God to hop to and meet the bar they set and provide proof of His existence.

if theists can't provide any objective evidence at all, then hardly seems like my fault.

If atheists can't look for their own objective evidence, then hardly seems like the fault of theists. Why would theists be responsible for providing evidence for atheists?

Why does my atheism so obviously bother you would be a more salient question? You are forever ranting about it, even though it doesn't remotely affect you, which is more than can be said for religious beliefs which wield massive influence, and is not always innocuous.

Why does theism so obviously bother atheists would be a more salient question. Atheists are forever ranting about theism, even though it doesn't remotely affect you.

 

[ppp]

Many (most) atheists and you? Why would it matter what your opinion of me is? Why would your opinions of my beliefs matter? Personal opinions do not deem anything true or false. If there were many Baha'is on this thread they would share my opinions. Would that mean that my beliefs are true?

Does it ever matter, in your opinion, if a person holds beliefs that cannot be shown to be true? If so, what circumstances?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why assume a God? Why didn't you study the cognitive and behavioral sciences instead?

I was a child. I didn't even know what "cognitive and behavioral sciences" were.

Why did you think it's true?

Initially, I didn't know anything else.
Then, as I say, I was well educated in the Bible at school.

That was followed by a careless teenage period where I didn't stop believing in G-d, but had no particular creed.
In my early twenties, I discovered the Qur'an.
I've never looked back. It all fits neatly together and completes the theological jigsaw puzzle.

 

[Trailblazer]

Does it ever matter, in your opinion, if a person holds beliefs that cannot be shown to be true? If so, what circumstances?

No, in my opinion it does not matter if a religious belief cannot be shown to be true to everyone, because it is logically impossible for that to ever be the case. Try to think about why that would never be possible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ooh! This is a moment of global importance!
We are about to see the evidence for god that mankind has been searching for for millennia.

*deep breath*
I'm ready...

Don't hold your breath because I doubt you will ever see the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. So you are now admitting that polytheist religions are wrong, despite earlier claiming that all religions are right.

As I said, those polytheist religions were right for the times and peoples in which they were revealed, but times and people change.

It is also questionable as to whether the founders of those religions ever taught that there were many gods. It is more likely that the scriptures were misinterpreted by the followers of those religions.

 

[F1fan]

Your observations are mere opinions.

So if you see an orange on your kitchen table it is only your opinion that it is there?

 

[F1fan]

No, you don't have a choice.

Well that's confusing, another guy who says he is a Muslims just said it was. So as an atheist which one of you two guys is right? Maybe you two need to figure out what the truth is and get back to us.

So why don't we humans get to decide whether a God exists? It's a dispute that isn't yet settled.

If he exists then he exists it is not a matter of a choice of anyone

Right, so how do we determine whether the idea of god is true, or at least plausible? Let's note that until we have adequate evidence that Gods are plausible we shouldn't be too eager to decide one exists, right?

However, you can choose to worship him or ignore that

Why would a rational person decide to worship something not yet known to exist?

 

[Trailblazer]

So your faith comes, at least in part, from other people.

No, my faith comes from Messengers of God, who are not 'other people.'

The Messengers of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man because they are both divine and human. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world (heaven) before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where Messengers get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God can speak to Them through the Holy Spirit and through Them God communicates to humanity.

But you earlier said that faith must come from the self (ironically, quoting someone else!)

What I meant when I said that is that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself. That means that we should not rely upon other people to tell us what to believe about the Messengers of God but rather we should decide for ourselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you don't understand how analogies work.

I know how they work but I also know when they are not valid. Anyone can put forth an analogy but all analogies are not valid.

So we're back to you claiming that only your version of god is right and the others are wrong, which you have also denied.

No, we are not back to that. That is a straw man.

Either Jesus was a human manifestation of god, or he wasn't. It really is a black and white issue. Where do you stand? Yes or no?

Yes, I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[ppp]

No, in my opinion it does not matter if a religious belief cannot be shown to be true to everyone, because it is logically impossible for that to ever be the case. Try to think about why that would never be possible.

Why are religious beliefs different from any other non-falsifiable belief?

 

[Trailblazer]

Without the different messengers establishing different religions and sects, there would not be conflict based on those differences.
Think of it like this, without football there would be no football violence.

That is true, there would be no conflict if there had not been different Messengers who revealed different religions, but that does not mean that the Messengers caused the conflict. They did not cause them. Religious believers caused the conflicts because that disagreed over which religion was right.

The different Messengers with different messages were needed at the times they were sent so not sending Messengers would not have been a solution. The solution to end the conflict has now been offered by the latest Messenger, Baha'ullah, who enjoined all of humanity to view all religions as one unfolding process of revelation from God to man instead of seeing them as separate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Think of it like this, without football there would be no football violence.

So we should not have football because some people get hurt? Don't you think it should be the choice of the players who choose to participate in the sport?

I love football season and I hate it every year when it comes to an end.
Mind you, I never watch football but my husband likes to watch it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are not actually talking about "evidence" then. You are talking about "faith based claims".
Fair enough. That's what I suspected.

No, that is not what I was implying.

I said: Evidence for science is conclusive because scientific facts can be proven true, but that is not the case for religious beliefs.

I meant that religious beliefs cannot be proven to be true like scientific facts but there is evidence that indicates that religious beliefs are true.