Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Polymath257]

God does not want to communicate to any other humans so He doesn't.

OK, and the fact that he doesn't want to means that he doesn't care.

God only does what God wants to do.

But failure to do certain things makes God negligent and thereby not good.

Why would God do what He does not want to do, who is there that can make him?
Why is that so difficult to understand?

What is so difficult to understand about such selfishness being evil?

There is nothing odd about it, what is odd is people expecting the Almighty God, the Creator or the Universe, to speak to them directly.
And as yet not one atheist can answer me when I ask them why God would or should do that.

A *good* God would want to. And evil God would not. it is that simple.

Give me just one reason why God should do that, other than that is what you want God to do.

Nope, it has to do with what it means to be good or evil.

 

[F1fan]

What it comes down to is we're not going to get any evidence, so what we're supposed to do is trust that the Baha'i prophet is telling the truth. If we don't do it, it is because we are blind and can't see the truth in his message.

Good point. This is how religions work, in an emotionally coercive way. We see numerous believers evade serious questions, and then repeat claims and beliefs as if the more it is repeated the more it becomes true. And I notice that certain claims change slightly, which then creates more controversy, and then the other version of the claim is repeated. Yet somehow the truth is supposed to be absolute in some way.

There's no remarkable feats or deeds that suggest the messengers are influenced by God, nor any texts that couldn't be written by human creativity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

All words require interpretation.
No, I only speak for myself.
Based upon His track record, God would never do that.. You can hope for that though.
.. because God wants our faith.
God does not a man (?)so God does not change His mind.

Why are they not clear in themselves?
I do not take you as an exemplar of wisdom.
I know. Fakes do not have any evidence.
I would not get my nose cut on just faith to see the Emperor's new clothes.
Imaginary beings have imaginary minds. One can make them do anything one wants.

Then why do you keep asking me about them?

Because4 you keep on mentioning and do not provide evidence - and you are doing this in a Debate forum. Myself and other atheist will not let it remain unanswered.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I am not reading any more. I gave you what you asked for and all you can do is complain.

Happy Trails.

WHO'S COMPLAINING! You offered a bit much to take explanation and I called it what it seemed to be to me. What WERE you expecting....me to fall down at your feet and praise you for such an EXCELLENT explanation? Sorry I failed to meed your expectations.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In religious debate theists are at a big disadvantage..

Depends who they are debating with.
Everybody is a theist. We all believe in something.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God speaks directly to humans, over 2,000 times in the Old Testament there are phrases such as, "And God spoke to Moses" or "the word of the Lord came to Jonah" or "God said."

That's true, but I'm sure that G-d hasn't spoken to Sheldon.

 

[F1fan]

All words require interpretation.

Another reason why God going through just one person and that person trying to put the message into words, and then followers trying to interpret what the messenger wrote, is a bad and ineffective method. No wonder there is a mix of beliefs in the world, and a real lack of unity.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is how religions work, in an emotionally coercive way.

I don't need coercion.
I am able to see the difference between truth and falsehood.
I choose truth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Depends who they are debating with.
Everybody is a theist. We all believe in something.

Believing is something does not make one theist. Theists is one who believes in existence of God / Allah.

I choose truth.

We atheists see that as ignorance and superstition.

That's true, but I'm sure that G-d hasn't spoken to Sheldon.

That is the problem. God should speak to Sheldon or Aupmanyav individually. Why should we otherwise have a belief in him? Mohammad said he got a message, did he provide any evidence?

.. an omnipotent God ONLY DOES what it wants to do, not what humans want it to do.

Not even two hoots for this God.

Nobody could EVER understand God if God communicated to them directly.

That means the 'all-mighty' God cannot do all things, he is a failure. Why can't he speak in the language that we understand?

 

[F1fan]

Depends who they are debating with.

True, there are religion or religion debate where believers debate their interpretations of texts and traditions. That can get quite ugly, more so than atheist versus theist debate.

Everybody is a theist. We all believe in something.

Atheists aren't theists.

Yet we do all believe in many diverse things. I might believe that the hamburger I ate for lunch was the best I ever had in my life, but that doesn't mean I believe in religious concepts. Theists are defined as believers in religious concepts of one kind or another.

 

[F1fan]

I don't need coercion.
I am able to see the difference between truth and falsehood.
I choose truth.

What do you think truth is?

 

[F1fan]

That's true, but I'm sure that G-d hasn't spoken to Sheldon.

According to Trailblazer God hasn't spoken with you either. Is she correct?

 

[Polymath257]

No, these are straightforward questions. Look at how many times I asked the same question and never got a straight answer. This is Dotsman-style deflection, all atheists do it when they don't want egg on their faces.

#877 Trailblazer, Today at 2:18 PM

#882 Trailblazer, Today at 2:29 PM

#888 Trailblazer, Today at 2:36 PM

Policy said: What part of 'because you want it' is unclear? This isn't poetry. Just like the air is there because you want it, my conviction would be there because God wants it.

Trailblazer said:
How do you know what God wants?
How do you know that God wants you to know that He exists?
How do you know that if God wanted you to know that He exists He would have already convinced you that He exists?

Tell me know you know any of this.

Again, Why do you expect God to have already convinced you that He exists if God exists?

#897 Trailblazer, Today at 2:49 PM

If God is good, and if my belief that he exists is relevant to my well-being, then God would *want* to convince me of his existence. if God is all knowing, he would know HOW to convince me, and if he is all powerful, then he would be able to convince me.

So I can conclude either
1. My belief in God's existence isn't relevant to my well-being OR
2. God is not good OR
3. God is not all knowing OR
4. God is not all powerful OR
5. God does not exist.

I find 5 to be the most convincing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Theists are defined as believers in religious concepts of one kind or another.

Well it's pretty meaningless to me.
It could mean we believe in the flying spadhetti monster.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What do you think truth is?

I know what truth is.
I think. Therefore I am.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Trailblazer said:
How do you know what God wants?
How do you know that God wants you to know that He exists?
How do you know that if God wanted you to know that He exists He would have already convinced you that He exists?

You can make an imaginary being do whatever you want. You can make him dance in Times Square.
For all I care, this imaginary entity can remain hidden for all times that he wants.
How does it affect me if this imaginary entity recognizes or ignores me or any other atheist?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think. Therefore I am.

You (or me) are just a temporary grouping of molecules which disperse after death. There is no greater truth than this.

It could mean we believe in the flying spadhetti monster.

Is God any different from the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I always find it interesting how theists often inflate themselves as if they see themselves as God themselves, but are not consciously aware of this.

What nonsense.
Are you suggesting that you have not been provided with an intellect?
Did G-d make a mistake and leave you without one?

 

[Trailblazer]

Other religious people don't seem to find it absurd.

And that should matter to me why? I am a Bahai, so I have updated information.

And how do you know your scriptures aren't fraught with errors as well?

They cannot have errors because they were written by an inerrant Messenger of God. That is what I believe.

Yes, that is your belief. I find there to be no reason to think you are correct in that belief.

You are not me so you cannot know the reasons why I think I am correct about my belief.

Both of us come from positions we are comfortable with. I see you as digging in your heels and you seem me as doing the same. I try to work from your position and explain why what you say doesn't make any sense to me.

All I can so is explain what I believe, I cannot hep it if it does not make sense to you, but it might help if you explained why it does not make sense to you.

But I *did* give you what I consider to be logical reasons why a God that cares, is good, and is able *would* communicate. You rejected those reasons by simply claiming your position again and not by actually countering my argument. I consider that to be digging in heels.

The thing is that you cannot give me one good reason why God would/should communicate directly to everyone in the world instead of using Messengers yet I can (and I have) given you many reasons why God uses Messengers.

Or that no God exists, or that God doesn't care, or that the message isn't important, or that God is unable. You leap to one explanation when there are several others that explain as much or more.

What you are saying is that no God exists because it does not communicate directly to everyone in the world yet you cannot give me one good reason why God would communicate directly to everyone if God existed. You just think God should do that but you have no reason to believe that.

Um, YOU were the one that said that God doesn't care. I agreed that is a good explanation.

I only ever said that God does not need our belief, I never said that God does not care about us. God would not send Messengers if He did not care about us.

Again, my wants have nothing to do with it. Remember that I don't believe in your mythology. Instead, it has to do with the meaning of the words 'good', 'knowing', 'powerful', etc. I agree that giving up any of those characteristics fits the facts better than having all of them.

No, it absolutely does not have anything to do with the meaning of those words. It has to do with what you think a God that 'good', 'knowing', 'powerful' WOULD DO. As such it is nothing but an ego projection onto God.

And so, logically, if the way seen is NOT the best way, then it doesn't involve a God that knows, is capable, and is good.

No, that is just more of your ego projection and you don’t realize that because it is an ego projection.

What you are saying is that you would KNOW MORE than God if God existed. You are saying that the best way is not Messengers but rather direct communication to everyone, but there is no logical basis for that belief, it is just what you want. If direct communication as the best way an al-knowing God would have used it, so if God exists it is NOT the best way, and if God does not exist this whole conversation is moot.

Try to refute my logic. Give me one good reason why God would not know the best way to communicate to the humans He created.

If God is not all-knowing, then it is a possible explanation for the inferior way of communication used.

This is your only way out isn’t it because if God is all-knowing that means that God knows more than you know? You think you would know more than God if God existed. There are no words for this that won’t get me a moderator note. It is so incredible.

I disagree. As I explained, God would want to communicate with everyone (all good), would be able to do so in a way that was beneficial to everyone (all powerful), and would know the best way to accomplish that communication (all knowing).

Tell me how you know what God would want, how you know what direct communication to everyone would accomplish. Tell me how you know that direct communication to everyone would be the BEST WAY to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, or does not even MATTER what God wants to accomplish?
This is all just ego projection because it is what YOU WANT.

I know exactly what God wants and what God wants and it does not come from me, it comes from a Messenger of God. NOBODY except a Messenger of God could EVER understand God communicating to them. This is my belief and I have a basis from my belief. It came from God.

You cannot prove that they *are* messengers from God unless you can prove there is a God. And, outside of their claims, there is no evidence they are messengers for anyone other than themselves.

I do not need to prove that, I know without proof because I have evidence.

I see no point in continuing this conversation if we are just going to continue going around the merry-go-round. You know my position and I know yours. My position is not subject to change because I know what I believe is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, so it is not a fact that he is a messenger from God. It is a belief. What actual evidence is there to support that belief? You know, some fact that makes it more or less likely that the belief is true?

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah