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Atheists Pressure MI School District to Stop Treating the Birth of Jesus as Fact

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
ROFL

WOW!! Was a hornet's nest stirred or what.

YUP! This is a the best demonstration of "We want to limit freedoms" I have ever seen.

That's what I love about those who demand equal rights... just not so equal (a few exceptions in the barrage that came)

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY! :D

:hugehug:
 

Earthling

David Henson
Sorry, but evolution is supported by literally mountains of scientific evidence. Only the ignorant oppose it. It is not an atheist matter either since far more Christians accept the fact of evolution than atheists.

We've been through this too many times. Imagine if my only response to you was that "The Bible is the truth and the truth shall set ye free! More Christians believe in the Bible than anyone believes in evolution. There is literally mountains of evidence for this." It would mean nothing to you, as your statement above means nothing to me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We've been through this too many times. Imagine if my only response to you was that "The Bible is the truth and the truth shall set ye free! More Christians believe in the Bible than anyone believes in evolution. There is literally mountains of evidence for this." It would mean nothing to you, as your statement above means nothing to me.
Not nearly the same. My claims are verifiable, yours are not. That is why your beliefs are.religious, faith based. Mine are evidence based. Mine are based upon the scientific method which has a history of success after success. Religion . . . not so much.

You have demonstrated a lack of interest in learning. Until you want to learn you will be stuck not knowing the difference.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
If you want to actually be consistent, then include all the other religion's myths as part of the celebration.
That would lead to incoherence. It would much easier (and far more logical) to simply forbid all expressions of religion in public. I think many of these secularists should cut the bull and just come out with it. What they really want is state atheism. Heck, I've seen people on this very forum insist that it ought to be illegal to raise children religiously.

Public schools are government entities, and thus are subject to the establishment clause of the first amendment. Private businesses and citizens are not.
And that's the point.

The fact is that the holidays and festivals of western culture are what they are due to a two millennium ascendance of Christianity. Christmas is an artifact of that ascendance. Thus if you truly want a society that's religiously neutral then any and all public recognition of Christmas would have to go. You could still celebrate Christmas in the privacy of your own home or business, just as there's nothing stopping you from privately observing Krishna Jannashtami.

All Christians have to do is keep it out of where it doesn't belong. And unless one is an utter dufus it should be all that difficult. Should it?
You're missing the point. Christmas is an artifact of religion, thus true religious neutrality would require civil society cease all recognition of Christmas as a holiday. Shouldn't we stop imposing Christmas on all the [insert any or multiple religious minority(ies) of your choice]? Is it "fair" that Christmas gets a civil holiday but Eid doesn't? Thus if you think Christianity ought not to have any place in the public sphere, fine. Take that view to its logical conclusion and insist that Christmas and Easter be uprooted from the civil calendar completely.

I think it would be a tragic cultural loss, but if that's the price of "secularism" and "diversity"... Well... Western civilization has itself to blame for putting itself in such an idiotic position to begin with.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
That would lead to incoherence. It would much easier (and far more logical) to simply forbid all expressions of religion in public. I think these many of these secularists should cut the bull and just come out with it. What they really want is state atheism. Heck, I've seen people on this very forum insist that it ought to be illegal to raise children religiously.

While I see your point, plenty of us secularists do not want state sponsored atheism. I have argued against people who believe raising a child in a religion is wrong. So, clearly not all atheists or secularists want that.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Not nearly the same. My claims are verifiable, yours are not. That is why your beliefs are.religious, faith based. Mine are evidence based. Mine are based upon the scientific method which has a history of success after success. Religion . . . not so much.

You have demonstrated a lack of interest in learning. Until you want to learn you will be stuck not knowing the difference.

Verifiable means nothing to me. Verifiable is just another word for dogmatic and adamant. Your verifiable science has demonstrated itself to be wrong more times than I can count. The stuff they taught me in school just 30 years ago as verifiable evidence is now laughable nonsense of the past just as all of the verifiable evidence now will be 30 years from now. You're not completely stupid, and so you know this.

My opinion is, though, that it's a shame I can't learn the stuff to debunk it just as I did most of the Christian nonsense that I loathed growing up as an atheist. It just isn't worth my time. Now if it demonstrated what I know about the Bible to be false I would jump right on it. But that isn't the case. You know that and I know that.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That would lead to incoherence. It would much easier (and far more logical) to simply forbid all expressions of religion in public. I think these many of these secularists should cut the bull and just come out with it. What they really want is state atheism. Heck, I've seen people on this very forum insist that it ought to be illegal to raise children religiously.
Well, yes. Many atheists are simply Christians without God. They still think they've got the "one true religion", even though they don't call their new beliefs that. They just hold them the same way. Christians without God, is a good term for that phenomenon.

However, I don't think that religious form of atheism reflects a more mature view that sees the value of traditions and their symbols, for the people they have value for, or even for our culture at large since it is part of our cultural heritage and identity. I see the complaints being more about the unembarrassed exploitation of it for evangelical reasons. It's the co opting of cultural traditions by religious salesmen turning secularism into some imaginary "war on Christmas" to rally the troops behind themselves, creating a friction where little to none had existed before for their own sakes.

It's that sort of egregious behavior that makes "watchdog" groups keep an eye out for that. And then of course they cry "poor victim that we are" at being targeted by those who take offense at these wolves in sheeps clothing. And so forth. So I'm not entirely sure they are out to "kill God" at every turn, aside from the fanatics who just took off their religious fundamentalist ballcap for their new faith of "no-God". I think the cry of secularism attacking God is manufactured. If anything, it's consumerism that is the enemy. Not atheists.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Verifiable means nothing to me. Verifiable is just another word for dogmatic and adamant. Your verifiable science has demonstrated itself to be wrong more times than I can count. The stuff they taught me in school just 30 years ago as verifiable evidence is now laughable nonsense of the past just as all of the verifiable evidence now will be 30 years from now. You're not completely stupid, and so you know this.

My opinion is, though, that it's a shame I can't learn the stuff to debunk it just as I did most of the Christian nonsense that I loathed growing up as an atheist. It just isn't worth my time. Now if it demonstrated what I know about the Bible to be false I would jump right on it. But that isn't the case. You know that and I know that.
That is terribly wrong and ignorant. You might as well make your claim that your computer does not work, it is based upon dogma. I know that you do not value the Ten Commandments, which is rather strange for a Christian, but you are bearing false witness against your neighbor when you make such claims. You also don't understand how science works. When it is "wrong" it is almost always a minor correction. When your beliefs are "wrong" they are completely off the mark.

And the problem with the stuff that you learned thirty years ago probably had more to do with your instructor than with the science. You only have a high school level of science education at best. The science is often "dumbed down" to the point of being rather inaccurate, and even then many teachers get it wrong.


But since you refuse to learn your opinion is worthless in such matters. As the saying goes there is no such thing as an honest informed creationist.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
We've been through this too many times. Imagine if my only response to you was that "The Bible is the truth and the truth shall set ye free! More Christians believe in the Bible than anyone believes in evolution. There is literally mountains of evidence for this." It would mean nothing to you, as your statement above means nothing to me.
Most Christians accept evolution, actually, so I doubt "More Christians believe in the Bible than anyone believes in evolution" is accurate. Christians not believing in evolution as a matter of religion is a recent artifact of some American protestant churches. It's been exported in recent years, but it is still a long way from a mainstream belief.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
ROFL

WOW!! Was a hornet's nest stirred or what.

YUP! This is a the best demonstration of "We want to limit freedoms" I have ever seen.

That's what I love about those who demand equal rights... just not so equal (a few exceptions in the barrage that came)

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY! :D

:hugehug:
No one wants to "limit freedom". You're free to have all the Christmas pageants you want in a church or other venue you acquire for the purpose.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That would lead to incoherence. It would much easier (and far more logical) to simply forbid all expressions of religion in public. I think many of these secularists should cut the bull and just come out with it. What they really want is state atheism. Heck, I've seen people on this very forum insist that it ought to be illegal to raise children religiously.

I don't think any atheist is advocating state atheism. Though some religious beliefs do amount to child abuse so you might have a point there. People who are not of mainstream Christianity, and that can include Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, and even Mormons, do not want to see someone else's brand of Christianity in the schools. Those are very divers groups that will oppose this sort of abuse. It is not just atheists.

And that's the point.

The fact is that the holidays and festivals of western culture are what they are due to a two millennium ascendance of Christianity. Christmas is an artifact of that ascendance. Thus if you truly want a society that's religiously neutral then any and all public recognition of Christmas would have to go. You could still celebrate Christmas in the privacy of your own home or business, just like there's nothing stopping you from privately observing Krishna Jannashtami.


You're missing the point. Christmas is an artifact of religion, thus true religious neutrality would require civil society cease all recognition of Christmas as a holiday. Shouldn't we stop imposing Christmas on all the [insert any or multiple religious minority(ies) of your choice]? Is it "fair" that Christmas gets a civil holiday but Eid doesn't? Thus if you think Christianity ought not to have any place in the public sphere, fine. Take that view to its logical conclusion and insist that Christmas and Easter are uprooted from the civil calendar completely.

I think it would be a tragic cultural loss, but if that's the price of "secularism" and "diversity"... Well... Western civilization has itself to blame for putting itself in such an idiotic position to begin with.


I don't mind a secular approach to Christmas, and since as you rightly point out Christianity has made it a cultural event so one cannot totally eliminate Christianity from Christmas, that would seem to be a pointless ideal that would in its own way ruin Christmas. But one has to tread a fine line and not make it a religious event. Carols are fine in moderation. But if all one has are Christian carols then one has crossed the line. A mix of history and secularism will allow everyone to have a part.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Atheists Pressure MI School District to Stop Treating the Birth of Jesus as Fact

Certain Christians keep bringing up that birth story year after year, as if anybody cares to hear about that story anymore.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
We've been through this too many times. Imagine if my only response to you was that "The Bible is the truth and the truth shall set ye free! More Christians believe in the Bible than anyone believes in evolution. There is literally mountains of evidence for this." It would mean nothing to you, as your statement above means nothing to me.
Who cares if they believe in the Bible or not. More people (60%) believe in human evolution than don't (33%). AND, this means that a considerable number of Christians (in some cases 78%) believe in human evolution.
msn-cheeky-smile-smiley-emoticon.gif



evolution2013-2.png

.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Who cares if they believe in the Bible or not. More people (60%) believe in human evolution than don't (33%). AND, this means that a considerable number of Christians (in some cases 78%) believe in human evolution.
msn-cheeky-smile-smiley-emoticon.gif


evolution2013-2.png
.
And that is just in the U.S. One of the countries with the highest rates of belief in creationism in the world. If you include other countries the numbers would be far stronger in evolution's favor.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Who cares if they believe in the Bible or not. More people (60%) believe in human evolution than don't (33%). AND, this means that a considerable number of Christians (in some cases 78%) believe in human evolution.
msn-cheeky-smile-smiley-emoticon.gif


evolution2013-2.png
.

Ah, good. Another one of Skwim's charts. How many Jehovah's Witnesses does that include? 300 million or so? Don't you ever learn?
 
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Earthling

David Henson
Most Christians accept evolution, actually, so I doubt "More Christians believe in the Bible than anyone believes in evolution" is accurate. Christians not believing in evolution as a matter of religion is a recent artifact of some American protestant churches. It's been exported in recent years, but it is still a long way from a mainstream belief.

You're talking to me. Do you think I place any value on what most Christians believe? I've said it over and over and over again. Most Christians believe the trinity comes from the Bible rather than Plato. Most Christians believe the soul is immortal, from Socrates. Most Christians think Jesus died on the cross, though that idea come from Constantine 400 years after Christ.

Christians are wrong on a lot of things so, if what you say is true, though I doubt it, it would only mean to me that a bunch of ignorant Christians believe a nonsensical failed theory. Go figure.

It's not an argument. It's a moot point.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No one wants to "limit freedom". You're free to have all the Christmas pageants you want in a church or other venue you acquire for the purpose.
Why, thank you! :D And the band at our local public schools will continue to play "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" for the enjoyment of the audience, which you are free not to go to. :D
 
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