maybe it has to do with a social construct of persistent ramblings of superstition that drive atheists to identify their feelings honestly.
which drugs are you talking about?
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Atheists questioning their Atheism?
- Thread starter Rainbow Mage
- Start date
which drugs are you talking about?
rageoftyrael
Veritas
Yes, i question my atheism. To question it, it is merely me saying " does any of these answers make sense?" "do the answers i accept make sense" stuff like that. sometimes, i just want their to be an afterlife, but i can't pretend to believe, so.... but definitely, if someone is an atheist because they brought themselves to that point, from theism, then they will usually question it. I imagine if you were raised as an atheist, you may not question it, but i'm not one of those.
Starsoul
Truth
And athiests are so intelligent that the persistent ramblings of others strike them so forcefully? If so, why?
drugs like cocaine, heroine etc not medicine.
BeeBooga
Silent Inquisitor
I like to know about others beliefs about god, as long as they aren't pushing it on me. Had I not enjoyed listening to them, I wouldn't be here. I don't know why people do things they don't like to do.
My suicidal tendencies, depression, or other things in that spectrum, come from the life I had as a theist (the experiences etc) not because I have nothing to believe in or that I'm 'hopeless from life'.
I don't agree with this statement because of the amount of times I've heard killers say they did it 'for <insert deity here>'.
~Booga
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Starsoul
Truth
: )
What i meant to say was , that usually most people go through sufferings in their lives at one point or the other (i actually don't even like people much who haven't gone through much because they lack compassion and empathy), whether they are thiest or athiest, the point is that being a thiest, If you remain hopeful and not relate to your painful experiences as 'eternal pain', you get out of it strong and well groomed, learn a lesson or two for future, and don't blame yourself/deity/person for that suffering. But if you let it take over you, it completely ruins you.
Believers tend to deal better since they acknowledge that pain is a part of life,but fleeting, part of the test of humanity, part of the equation where you get to earn the reward for your struggle with pain. Even the minutest of it in the eyes of God is not vain, he is capable of compensating more than our imagination, and promises to compensate you so much that on the day of judgment people will wish they had suffered more in this life for the rewards they'd get for it in the afterlife. How can one refuse to accept such a lucrative offer where you know your pain is not everlasting? Not me
( what does this world give you as compared to that? how many good points do we get for being nice to somebody in this world? none)Case scenario= sufferings in our general observation, happen to everyone. some suffer more, some less. we should be thankful if we suffer less and strive to help those who suffer more.
What changes people in a better way after they suffer? Their attitude towards life.
Whether they arrive at that solution themselves, or their faith tells them to, this is the only way to come out, and whether or not they believe in a deity, their faith in themselves and in their lives, greatly strengthens. Couple that with the vision of a promising heavenly everafter, and you glide through your worries while smiling.
But, when you have a media that feeds you images of perfection in life from your birth till you die in this life, you're bound to relate to THAT standard of artificial living as the perfect image of happiness. I notice how divine books never talk of fiction, handsome prince, a place, beautiful girls, richness and happily ever after (in this world), I notice people who relate to happiness by the media fed standard and when they have an unpleasant event in their lives they are suddenly shocked out of their wits as if something colossal is happening to them since life was supposed to be so perfect. Divine books look at things realistically, setting standards for people and societies so that they may adopt a path which ensures comparatively less suffering for them, as compared to the one which apparently looks all glossy but infact is a deception.
Our lives are not supposed to be perfect, they are not rolled out by fiction novel writers, this is reality. We Cannot , never live the lives of queens and princesses in this world, then why the hell do we pursue and prefer artificial standards of looks, wealth and rides for our happiness, and sadden at lack of them when our lives simply aren't supposed to be perfect? We didn't even come here with our own choice, and what does God say about it? He says " with every new child, there's hope in humanity, and your existence as a human entitles you to a big fat chance to heaven, the ultimate perfection if you want to grasp it, but you'll have to strive for it, persistently". No fancy degrees or titles, be nice to your parents, kind to your kin and the young ones, be fair in your dealings, feed the poor, and repent your sins.
Evil has as much free will as goodness does, you will get to fully see the benefits and ills of both, you and only you shall decide where you want to end up. God will facilitate you if you choose his way, Evil will push you further towards evil if you choose his way. Evil lives in our desires, goodness lives in our spirit. The day you learn the difference between the two, you'll understand everything.
I am reminded of this one saying in my religion that' When man will ask God on the day of judgment to forgive his arrogance and selfishness, God will ask him, 'why, how many of my people did you forgive in your life when they were mean to you and begged for your forgiveness?', and eventually God will grant him mercy, if he chooses to forgive all those people.
This needs to be elaborated. If a person kills an innocent person and labels it to a deity, no law of the world will buy that story and he'll be nailed unless some countries grant pardon on the grounds of psychosis. So its not like people always get away with killing in the name of a deity. if the law doesnt get them, God gets them really good . Atleast I have never seen anyone getting away with doing something really bad/evil, even if the law of the land protects him, the laws of nature are supreme.( I'm so tempted to relate one story here of mine, but later )
Secondly, when God himself does not condone it, people cannot name him for it, and expect other people to believe them too. I'm sure though that they hear voices inside their head' go kill that person', but then, we all have mean voices and good voices in our head, and we all convince ourselves logically, to follow the ones we really want to follow.
If you want to be mean, you'll convince yourself to a very sound justification, there's little justification to be nice mostly, and few can overcome the temptation of being mean and nasty when they really feel like, and most regret it too later on (like i do when i'm not so nice : p). Where does the responsibility of choosing lie? What works the best for your inner peace, and the relationships around you? Its only being nice, but we seldom apply that concept, it doesn't serve our ego or our selfishness, since we also tell ourselves 'what do i get for being nice?' and believers think, ok fine i'll let this one go for God, and he shall compensate me for it, and he always does ,in a very graceful way, Alhamdulilah .
Alceste
Vagabond
Starsoul, you made a few dubious factual claims that need addessing.
Committed atheists are less prone to depression than Christians, according to this study:
Are Atheists More Depressed than Religious People?
Atheists are not unusually prone to drug use among other non-conformist minorities, according to this study (and what if they were? Drugs are awesome.)
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Yes, studies have found a correlation between waffling religious convictions and depression, and those studies have proliferated in religious publications as "proof" that atheists are sad. The problem with this is that atheists are not religious wafflers. These studies tend to take agnostics and believers who are not very involved with the church and call them "atheists". Freeing your mind from religious thinking appears to give a better shot at happiness than any amount of faith.
Committed atheists are less prone to depression than Christians, according to this study:
Are Atheists More Depressed than Religious People?
Atheists are not unusually prone to drug use among other non-conformist minorities, according to this study (and what if they were? Drugs are awesome
.)JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Yes, studies have found a correlation between waffling religious convictions and depression, and those studies have proliferated in religious publications as "proof" that atheists are sad. The problem with this is that atheists are not religious wafflers. These studies tend to take agnostics and believers who are not very involved with the church and call them "atheists". Freeing your mind from religious thinking appears to give a better shot at happiness than any amount of faith.
Starsoul
Truth
Really? 1 MILLION people per year commit suicide in the world, there is one Suicidal death every 45 seconds in the world ( where in US there's a rape reported every 2 seconds)I'm a health professional and judging by the suicide rates of the developed countries where religion is mostly a sunday affair, the rates are pretty convincing for any common man to weigh things out reasonably.
Instead of sharing an article by Council for secular humanism, which is clearly biased, why don't you check the suicide rates of Japan (no deity, no specific religion , none about a God, has buddhism & etc athiestic) it is one of the most advanced countries of the world, and its suicide rate is the highest in the world.
2009 the 12th straight year more than 30,000 people in Japan committed suicide in Japan.
They have hotlines for suicide where about 1300 calls per week are made for help regarding suicide. Jumping off the trains being one of the commonest way to suicide. These are certified statistics.
Suicide Statistics
Religion in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fact Sheets : Canadian Mental Health Association, Ontario
Suicide by Ethnicity is the highest among whites, Native Americans.
Over 90% of the people who commit suicide suffer from depression/mental illness/ alcohol, drug abuse.( Maybe you should go to these people and give them a good listening to, that drugs are really good and should be struck off the suicidal list because of the pleasant stupor they cause). I have come across countless cases where it pains me to see young, bright students deciding to take their own lives in just some spell of overdose or a wave of unhappiness, such a waste of precious life.
I'm not saying all athiests use drugs, a believer who claims to believe can also be pretty worrisome and fall prey to drugs, if a believer chooses a lifestyle akin to something against his beliefs, he isn't much of a believer anyway, he's a person without any focus. A believer is supposed to deal with it all and have some faith, if he doesn't do that, he'll easily fall into a vicious self deprecating cycle which can lead to anything, and he is not acting like a believer at that point.
It takes guts to believe, its not as easy as non-belief, but yes it is worth every cent of it and absolutely rewarding.
ok I believe you, but statistics of the athiestic nations are too pathetic to win that case. I don't doubt there may be many non-religious people really having a blast out there, but there you go, thats not what we call happiness, maybe you do but where i come from, there are many poor people who hardly get a decent meal a day, and surprise to you, they still find their lives valuable and are willing to help out those in more distress.
You're misconstruing my words, happy to you seems like a bout of high from alcohol/or any substance that can put you off your stress and make you laugh for a while. happiness under influence is a deception, and no amount of deception lasts for long.
However, Our modus operandi is a bit too easy, we put all worries to God and ask him to solve them all himself, since he can solve best, so off they go from your head and shoulders, to God, forgotten about them already, what a relief.
NOTE: This discussion isn't about who's happy or unhappy, since happiness is defined differently by believers and non-believers so there cannot be a comparison of the two. This is just about why believers tend to better cope with pain than the non-believers.
This could also be vice versa, I've seen some really patient athiests as well, who are really ticked at the misery of others, (great, thats humanity) but it also comes across as really strange that some of the most unfortunate, apparently miserable living people CHOOSE to be staunch believers, if anything , its such people who should be the first to loose out on faith, but they don't, and they beat all the lack of inspiration an athiestic stance seems to exude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YHaWaB_y-I
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Alceste
Vagabond
Really? Japan is "atheistic"???? Sure didn't seem that way when I was there.
Starsoul, can you not see that all you're doing is trying to ferret out particularly stressed out or dissatisfied demographics with a high rate of suicide (Native Americans, even!) and call them "atheist" to bolster your dubious claims? Please, do us both a favour and don't pursue this any further. It's ridiculous.
Starsoul, can you not see that all you're doing is trying to ferret out particularly stressed out or dissatisfied demographics with a high rate of suicide (Native Americans, even!) and call them "atheist" to bolster your dubious claims? Please, do us both a favour and don't pursue this any further. It's ridiculous.
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Starsoul
Truth
uhh Thanks, its common knowledge that any belief which does not hold an Almighty God comes under athiesm unless ofcorse the term is specifically defined by you, shinto and buddhism are by no means theistic by any stretch of that definition. high much, i suggest you take a break : )
Alceste
Vagabond
Buddhism is absolutely full of gods and other supernatural entities. I suggest you do a bit of reading.
Starsoul
Truth
yeah, full of little weak humanly gods does not equal the one Almighty God which is the only concept of the all powerful God in Abrahmic religions, denial of which lead to the term athiesm. Anything below that level, that negates the concept of the One omnipotent God is athiestic in essence.
And whatever little Ive read of shintoism and buddhism, it strongly negates that concept, terming the all powerful god a hindrance in reaching the nirvana, the ultimate goal of the buddhist.
A god that is considered equal to a human doesn't even get to the definition of god, dont know why you'd say buddhism holds a god concept, not valid.
God in Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hinduism is different since it does recognize an All supreme God, but it has smaller gods that reach to him and thats why it is called polytheism. The rejection of the All supreme god is where the definition of athiesm starts.
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because they are intelligent and there is no need to assume superstition in this context.
whatever, and I suppose high functioning individuals on pharmacological psychotropics must be superstitious?
Alceste
Vagabond
Studies show Buddhists have lower rates of suicide and higher levels of life satisfaction than people of Abrahamic faiths from similar cultural backgrounds. So there goes that theory.
And why would you attribute any difference in suicide rates (if there really is one - I'm suspicious that suicide tends to be very under-reported in societies with strong taboos against it, which would tend to skew any data based on those reports) to theists being less depressed? Why wouldn't we assume that stuff like this has something to do with it:
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on suicide and on offering the funeral prayer and praying for one who has committed suicide
IMO, "God hates suicide and doesn't want you to do it" and "God will punish you horribly forever if you commit suicide" are pretty strong disincentives against suicide for a person who believes them... even a horribly depressed believer.
As for your examples:
- Japan has a cultural history of ritual suicide to preserve or restore one's honour. This is a traditional Japanese practice that has nothing to do with atheism.
- Native Canadians do have a higher suicide rate than the general population, and while the reasons behind this are complex (probably involving factors such as the legacy of past treatment of native peoples in Canada, the reserve system that exists today, lack of opportunities for native youth, alcoholism problems in many communities, etc.), I think it's foolish to say that the problem comes from them not being religious enough.
That one dude...
Why should I have a faith?
I once considered myself an atheist, but then I questioned it. The atheist's claim is that there is no supreme being, omniscient creator, or whatever you wanna call it. While I agree with this claim, I can't really say there isn't one because I don't know and the burden of proof would be placed on me. Thus, I am an agnostic who simply doubts it and the burden of proof is on theists. So, I agree with Revoltingest.
Commoner
Headache
Unless you believe in a god, you're an atheist. Agnosticism is a position on the nature of knowledge and shouldn't be confused with "I'm not sure". You mistakenly believe that, in order to be an atheist, you need to make a claim that there are no gods. Most atheists are agnostic - and so are (at least some) theists. That doesn't mean we're not 100% atheists, it simply means that we recognize that we are not privy to absolute knowledge on any given topic.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Of course. When prodded, I'm happy to question my atheism. Do you have any questions which I should consider?
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Starsoul for those of us who are just joining the thread, and have not yet read all 22 pages, can you summarize your point? Accepting for the sake of argument, that belief in Islam makes people happier than disbelief in Islam, does this suggest anything about the truth or falsity of Islam? If belief in something makes you feel good, does that make it true?
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Huh? Religion is not science, and science is not religion. They are completely separate and distinct concepts.
I'm looking for the reasoning, not where you heard about it.
I've already done so. An intelligent being that controls the universe, generally anthropomorphic.
I can't control what you've had atheists tell you, but I have to doubt you've had more than one or two atheists tell you atheism in general has to be the belief that there is no God. And regardless, what a few atheists have told you doesn't change the fact that a lack of belief in gods is all that's necessary for the label "atheist".
Huh? Actually, it would be nothing at all like that. Satanism involves beliefs, as does secular humanism, even though they can both be atheistic.
That doesn't exactly answer my question. Yes, atheism can be the belief that no gods exist. How exactly can that be "used against atheists"?
I wouldn't be surprised at that. However, that doesn't change the fact that you're misunderstanding. You have an incorrect view of atheism, and it's improbable that you came by that based on what you've heard from most atheists.
It is the truth, and it is consistent. It's really very easy to understand. I'm not sure why you refuse to do so. Even your precious dictionary agrees with me, saying that it can be simply a lack of belief in gods or it can also be the belief that gods don't exist.Well, that's cetainly one way to respond to my comment without actually responding to my comment. You are confused based on your comments here. I'm not of the impression you're disagreeing with everything I'm saying. I'm of the impression you're saying some things that aren't true and show a confusion on your part, including your incorrect understanding of what I meant by being created by an intelligent being.
I'm sorry, I can't make heads or tails of this. What does the phrase "irrelevant to description" mean, and how would atheism be irrelevant to anything?
OK, cool. So, what you're saying is your previous comment was either badly misworded or just not at all what you believe?
That's cool. I never really expected you to do anything other than dodge this part anyway. So, go ahead and dodge away.Diddo
Ugh. First, it's "ditto". Second, no. My comment cannot be used to accurately describe what I've been saying. It only applies to you here. Try again.
My forehead's starting to hurt from all of the facepalms. You made arguments, whether or not you want to admit to them. Otherwise we wouldn't be arguing. See how that works? It's not I who needs better understanding here, as you're making painfully clear.
Yes, that's it. I'm sure that makes you feel better, but it's not the case. The problem is you think those things sound cool, and therefore mean something. Even if they're profound statements with a lot to say, they're still irrelevant to what I said. It's not an uncommon attempt to dodge actual conversation, but it's an unwelcome one.
That one dude...
Why should I have a faith?
I don't think it's quite so black-and-white. If you don't have a belief, you can still have the potential to believe if sufficient evidence has been brought forth. It just depends on how stubborn you are, really.