Atheists:what does a book gotta have to prove its God's

[~Amin~]

Alright I hate this arguement, point me to a living person who accurately represents "The Faith."

All people who follow revelation in its context, what i meant Aasimar is that
it seems to me (i may be wrong) that Mestimia hears ONE comment, from God
Knows who , then he puts a judgment on ALL Muslim i don't think this is mature.

 

[McBell]

since were on the topic why not point it out, its very relevant.

I dont understand, HOW can you judge ALL Muslims, if some people who CLAIM to be MUSLIM misrepresent the Faith?

Mestemia there is no argument, tell US, WHO"S arguing on spelling? Its just what certain translators, what letter they use to
define an Arabic letter, this does NOT make a sect, I'm shocked that
your having difficulty with this basic point.

There's no difference here, instead of judging so called "MUSLIMS"
why not judge the Qur'an?.
​

No big surprise here.
Now you are attempting the martyr tactic.
Fine, if you do not wish to answer and partake in a discussion then just say so.

I believe that I have been more than patient enough with your games and flat out BS.
Since discussion with you is mostly unproductive drivel from you, I will have to be content with going to the local Mosque.
Unlike you, they actually address the points and do not attempt to be the martyr when they do not know the answer or just do not want to address the issue.

And just for the record, I am not judging Muslims, I am attempting to understand how one alleged Muslim, you, can honestly believe that there is no disagreement amongst Muslims.

If the book was to truly be the divine words as directly spoken from your deity, one has to wonder why said deity would not use language that explains things in a manner that would not lead to so much disagreement and fighting.

The exact same can be said about the Bible.

But since you would rather go out of your way to not address this point, play the martyr, and be offended, i honestly see no reason to further this rather useless and unproductive test of patience.

If you wish to see this as a victory on your part, feel free.
Personally, I would find such an empty victory both demeaning and most embarrassing, but to each their own.

 

[YmirGF]

All people who follow revelation in its context, what i meant Aasimar is that it seems to me (i may be wrong) that Mestimia hears ONE comment, from God Knows who , then he puts a judgment on ALL Muslim i don't think this is mature.

I understand your position Amin but can you understand that we have come too far scientifically to settle for unsubstantiated "revelation" any more as "revelation" is virtually the antithesis of the scientific method.

 

[McBell]

All people who follow revelation in its context, what i meant Aasimar is that
it seems to me (i may be wrong) that Mestimia hears ONE comment, from God
Knows who , then he puts a judgment on ALL Muslim i don't think this is mature.

Thank you.
You have just confirmed that you do not even read what is posted.

 

[s2a]

Hello Amin,

You selectively quoted from my OP...
1) God (meaning to represent any divine entity in question) "speaks" to a group of His followers/adherents (after they prayerfully beseech Him to "reveal Himself to unbelievers), commanding them to preach of an upcoming "miracle" and message in the sky from God Himself (this would provide the basis of a prophecy to be borne out as true). Such a caveat is *optional*.

...then you said:

I not going to philosophize, but instead try to give answers directly
from the Book of God I'm sure the viewers would appreciate that.
And it is NOT for any human that God should speak to him
EXCEPT by revelation or from behind a partition(the causes around us)
or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He
wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise. Qur'an 42,51.

Um, ahem. I addressed the prospect of "revelation" (as caveat) within my inquiry. Your provided citation from the Qur'an only serves to reinforce my provided caveat; but does NOT support any argument that might suggest that praying for such a "miracle" is antithetical to ANY/ALL elements of (your) faith.

You tell me. Does prayer with/to your god entail any aspects of prospective "revelation", or not? Does your god speak to, or (directly) answer individualized prayers from his pious adherents, or not?

Does the Qur'an specifically prohibit your god from utilizing the night sky as his "messenger"?
[Please don't dodge and/or parse this question as some allegation/restriction upon your god. Does the Qur'an define whom/what may/might serve as His "messenger", or not?]

You quoted me...
Either the miracle can be "foretold", or manifest itself as a complete "surprise" (it's just that "fulfilled" prophecy seems to hold more sway and cognitive superficial influence than "unannounced" miracles.

Then you said:

This has already happened not in the exact words, but God split the moon
through the prophet Muhammad.
The hour has come near, and the moon has split
and if they see a sign , they turn AWAY and say
"passing magic" Qur'an 54,1,2.

Um, I don't follow here.

How is this any sort of relevant reply to the inquiry (I posed) that you chose to quote?

So far...you have yet to answer or address the question I put forward regarding adherents praying for the miracle I proposed...ie, "What's wrong with that?".

Is there anything within the Qur'an that specifically prohibits, or otherwise similarly suggests that Allah's follower's should not pray for their god to deliver such a "miracle"? Would it be "wrong" for Muslim's to pray for Allah to deliver such a miracle? If so, what is the Scriptural foundation of that conclusion? Does the Qur'an forbid believers from praying for miracles, or is his ultimate mercy bestowed upon unbelievers alone?

I concur in (your) setting aside philosophy, or "personalized interpretations". What does the Qur'an specifically allow or prohibit Allah's most faithful adherents in beseeching their god in delivering miracles that might bring about millions more devout believers?

Is there anything in the Qur'an that says adherents of Allah should not/never pray for such a miracle? Anywhere?

 

[gnostic]

I know I am little late in replying, and I don't have time to read all replies. But better late than never.

I am not atheist, but as an agnostic, I would like lot of real, irrefutable, hard, physical evidences of the existence of god, and any of the events reputably to be divine in nature.

Even with the proof, I may still not worship a deity or follow a religion.

Believing is not the same as worshipping. I can believe without worshipping. I believe in the existence in the Sun and Moon, but doesn't mean I am going to worship the Sun or Moon.

I would like to ask question from god himself, not from his prophets, and get honest answer from him, without all this boasting about being the one god or how powerful he is, like he did with Job, in the Book of Job. I could never worship or follow such a god who can't give me straight answer.

 

[YmirGF]

Thank you.
You have just confirmed that you do not even read what is posted.

You have posited some very good questions in very clear English. Try not to be too hard on Amin as he IS doing the best that he is capable of. Try to appreciate that anything other than the Muslim perspective is deemed to be based on insufficient or perhaps deficient understanding. In the worst cases unbelievers are wrongly guided by "evil jinn". Got it?

What most fail to grasp is the Islamic logic is a complete system of thought that follows its own very circular reasoning. This logical fallacy is outright ignored by Islam's greatest "thinkers" as a rule, however, within the system itself, everything does make perfect sense. The difficulty that many Muslims do not grasp especially well is their system of pristine logic breaks down when applied to other systems and in some cases bounces sky high, say unlike science that can be applied to many logic systems quite well. The biggest fault with the thinking of many Muslims is that they simply cannot comprehend how something that is so clearly obvious to them is not apparent to people who do not believe as they do. They are genuinely bewildered that the arguments they use amoungst themselves, within their sphere of logic, simply does not pass muster with unbelievers. In some ways I am sure it is quite perplexing, if not shocking.

So, I guess what I am saying is to cut Amin some slack because he genuinely doesn't understand how you could come up with the questions that you do. They make no sense, from his perspective, and that is why he does not offer answers. How can he? Is that fairly accuracte Amin?

 

[s2a]

I know I am little late in replying, and I don't have time to read all replies. But better late than never.

That's too bad. You might have enjoyed some of the ongoing discussions taking place...

I am not atheist, but as an agnostic, I would like lot of real, irrefutable, hard, physical evidences of the existence of god, and any of the events reputably to be divine in nature.

I believe that is exactly what my OP proposes. You did read that, didn't you? ;-)

Even with the proof, I may still not worship a deity or follow a religion.

OK. Why not? What if the "proof" included a message that worship was requisite to that deity's lent deference of your "post-existent" disposition? In other words..."worship=everlasting reward" vs. "non-worship=really ugly and lasting punishment". Then what? Ya still obstinate then?

Believing is not the same as worshipping. I can believe without worshipping. I believe in the existence in the Sun and Moon, but doesn't mean I am going to worship the Sun or Moon.

If the Sun could manifest the "miracle" I propose, I would.

I would like to ask question from god himself, not from his prophets, and get honest answer from him, without all this boasting about being the one god or how powerful he is, like he did with Job, in the Book of Job. I could never worship or follow such a god who can't give me straight answer.

Hmmm. How would you "know" that "god" gave you "answer" (and not your conscience, imagination, self-delusion/illusion, or manifested, "man-made" fraud)? Most ardent believers testify of a "personal revelation"; wherein their god "speaks" to them...personally. How is their "testimonial" claim significantly different from your own described burden of acceptable "proof"?

Would not a cosmic "message" in the night sky; that encompassed the (impossible?) shuffling of planets, stars, galaxies, and any other celestial phenomena (comets, meteors, supernovae, etc....being simultaneously observable, testable, measurable, and independently verifiable by any objective "witness" on the planet...present a more compelling and sustainable set of datum and evidence-burdened proofs than just some personalized "One-on-one" with "god"?

 

[gnostic]

If the Sun could manifest the "miracle" I propose, I would.

The Sun is a natural wonder. Granted.

Admire the sun, but I still couldn't worship it.

And there is no proof that some majestic divine being created the Sun.

According to the Genesis, God created day and night on the first day with light. But where did this light come from? How did he create day and night without the Sun, which he didn't invented until the 4th "day".

Illogical is you ask me....unless God had gigantic flashlight, shining on earth in the 1st day, and night means he turn off the switch.

 

[s2a]

The Sun is a natural wonder. Granted.

Admire the sun, but I still couldn't worship it.

And there is no proof that some majestic divine being created the Sun.

According to the Genesis, God created day and night on the first day with light. But where did this light come from? How did he create day and night without the Sun, which he didn't invented until the 4th "day".

Illogical is you ask me....unless God had gigantic flashlight, shining on earth in the 1st day, and night means he turn off the switch.

Um....you're really missing both the specifics of my most recent reply, and the OP...

...and there's little point in addressing the logical failings of the claims of Biblical "creation" to me...I'm the atheist here. ;-)

 

[Aasimar]

All people who follow revelation in its context, what i meant Aasimar is that
it seems to me (i may be wrong) that Mestimia hears ONE comment, from God
Knows who , then he puts a judgment on ALL Muslim i don't think this is mature.

Yes, my point was that we have no reference point for what the "True Faith" is. There is no standard to point so you must judge the religion by it's adherents. And Islam is violent compared to many other faiths, (Jainism for example.)

So yes, saying "This Muslim did bad therefore Islam is bad" is irresponsible. But after hundreds and hundreds of separate incidents of Islamic violence occur, the link must be formed.

 

[~Amin~]

You tell me. Does prayer with/to your god entail any aspects of prospective "revelation", or not?

Not Revelation, but inspiration.

Does your god speak to, or (directly)

I answered this already with the Qur'anic verse.

or (directly) answer individualized prayers from his pious adherents, or not?

He the Almighty doesn't only answer the obedient but also the disobedient.
When my servants ask thee concerning Me,(like you s2a) I am indeed CLOSE:
I RESPOND TO THE PRAYER OF EVERY SUPLICANT WHEN HE
CALLETH ON ME. Qur'an 2,186

Does the Qur'an specifically prohibit your god from utilizing the night sky as his "messenger"?

My God is also your God.

[Please don't dodge and/or parse this question as some allegation/restriction upon your god. Does the Qur'an define whom/what may/might serve as His "messenger", or not?]

I don't blame you I'm sure i lot of people dodge you but not me.
Oh God grant peace and blessings to the sun of the SKIES of MESSENGERHOOD,
the MOON of the CONSTELLATIONS of PROPHETHOOD, and to his family and
companions, the STARS of GUIDANCE, and grant mercy to us and all truthful
people. Amen. Amen. Amen.

Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, And the
alternation of Night and Day, there are indeed MESSAGES for
men of understanding. Qur'an 3,190.

Is there anything within the Qur'an that specifically prohibits, or otherwise similarly suggests that Allah's follower's should not pray for their god to deliver such a "miracle"? Would it be "wrong" for Muslim's to pray for Allah to deliver such a miracle? If so, what is the Scriptural foundation of that conclusion? Does the Qur'an forbid believers from praying for miracles, or is his ultimate mercy bestowed upon unbelievers alone?

SORRY Please, basically define miracle.

I concur in (your) setting aside philosophy, or "personalized interpretations". What does the Qur'an specifically allow or prohibit Allah's most faithful adherents in beseeching their god in delivering miracles that might bring about millions more devout believers?

No it doesn't, God does show miracles in ones life regardless if someone
prays for it or not.

Is there anything in the Qur'an that says adherents of Allah should not/never pray for such a miracle? Anywhere?

For, in accordance with the purpose of the examinations and trials that man
is to undergo, the way must be shown to him without depriving him of his
free will: the door of the INTELLIGENCE must remain open, and its freedom
MUST NOT be snatched from its hand. But if miracles had occurred in SO
APPARENT a way, intelligence would of had no choice; Charles Manson or
Hitler would have believed and behaved like mother Teresa, or the companions
of the prophets, Coal would have had the value of Diamonds, and no
purpose would have remained for testing and accountability.


If i missed anything please outline it, theres so many people waiting on
answers, my wife just left and i JUMPED on the computer, she gets upset
if i don't spend the equivalent time with her, the time i spend on the RF,
ha, ha, ha,......

 

[s2a]

Not Revelation, but inspiration.

Please then outline/define the relevant distinctions between "divine" revelation and secular inspiration.

If I'm "moved" (inspirationally) by a BudLight ad on TV, how is that different from some religiously-accounted inspiration/revelation experience?

I answered this already with the Qur'anic verse.

NO, you didn't.

He the Almighty doesn't only answer the obedient but also the disobedient.
When my servants ask thee concerning Me,(like you s2a) I am indeed CLOSE:
I RESPOND TO THE PRAYER OF EVERY SUPLICANT WHEN HE
CALLETH ON ME. Qur'an 2,186

Cool. What is then your objection (if any) to my OP? Would you pray to your God to reveal HImself in the manner and method that I propose in the OP, or not? If not...why not?

My God is also your God.

I think not. I'm still the atheist here. ;-)

I don't blame you I'm sure i lot of people dodge you but not me.
Oh God grant peace and blessings to the sun of the SKIES of MESSENGERHOOD,
the MOON of the CONSTELLATIONS of PROPHETHOOD, and to his family and
companions, the STARS of GUIDANCE, and grant mercy to us and all truthful
people. Amen. Amen. Amen.

So...I'll take this as a "yes"? Allah could use the night sky as a "messenger" of His Will? If so, then why not pray that Allah fulfill the prayers of His faithful in manifesting the "miracle" as proposed in my OP?

Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, And the
alternation of Night and Day, there are indeed MESSAGES for
men of understanding. Qur'an 3,190.

How about then a "message" that entails redirecting the entirety of the cosmos to say, "I am God...and I told you so...according to Qur'an 3,190"?

SORRY Please, basically define miracle.

I will if you will. You seem to reference the phrase/intent confidently enough below...

No it doesn't, God does show miracles in ones life regardless if someone
prays for it or not.

OK. Please define (basically) how God "shows" a "miracle"? You tell me.

For, in accordance with the purpose of the examinations and trials that man
is to undergo, the way must be shown to him without depriving him of his
free will: the door of the INTELLIGENCE must remain open, and its freedom
MUST NOT be snatched from its hand. But if miracles had occurred in SO
APPARENT a way, intelligence would of had no choice; Charles Manson or
Hitler would have believed and behaved like mother Teresa, or the companions
of the prophets, Coal would have had the value of Diamonds, and no
purpose would have remained for testing and accountability.

Jabberwocky. Let's get back on topic, if you please.

If i missed anything please outline it, theres so many people waiting on
answers, my wife just left and i JUMPED on the computer, she gets upset
if i don't spend the equivalent time with her, the time i spend on the RF,
ha, ha, ha,......

I counsel that you get your personal priorities in order.

RF is but a hobby, a distraction of amusement and entertainment for me. My wife's concerns always come first. ALWAYS.

 

[~Amin~]

NO, you didn't.

And it is NOT for any human that God should speak to him
EXCEPT by revelation or from behind a partition(the causes around us)
or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He
wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise. Qur'an 42,51.

I counsel that you get your personal priorities in order.

Dont you be concerned, i have my priority right.:yes:

RF is but a hobby, a distraction of amusement and entertainment for me. My wife's concerns always come first. ALWAYS.

Always thats TRUE, i think you misunderstood me:sad4:

 

[s2a]

And it is NOT for any human that God should speak to him
EXCEPT by revelation or from behind a partition(the causes around us)
or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He
wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise. Qur'an 42,51.

Dont you be concerned, i have my priority right.:yes:


Always thats TRUE, i think you misunderstood me:sad4:

Please address the directed questions put to you in post #253. You fairly enough demand specifics in question. Specific questions are therein put to you.

You have answered none of the questions of any direct significance to the topic at hand...instead choosing to respond to the most trivial of my comments.

Please re-read my post of #253, and respond with pointed reply....or cease in wasting the limited time any devotee of this forum would care to indulge with favor.

 

[K.Venugopal]

... instead of judging so called "MUSLIMS" why not judge the Qur'an?

Jesus: A tree is known by its fruits.

 

[K.Venugopal]

What most fail to grasp is the Islamic logic is a complete system of thought that follows its own very circular reasoning. This logical fallacy is outright ignored by Islam's greatest "thinkers" as a rule, however, within the system itself, everything does make perfect sense. The difficulty that many Muslims do not grasp especially well is their system of pristine logic breaks down when applied to other systems and in some cases bounces sky high, say unlike science that can be applied to many logic systems quite well. The biggest fault with the thinking of many Muslims is that they simply cannot comprehend how something that is so clearly obvious to them is not apparent to people who do not believe as they do. They are genuinely bewildered that the arguments they use amoungst themselves, within their sphere of logic, simply does not pass muster with unbelievers. In some ways I am sure it is quite perplexing, if not shocking.

So, I guess what I am saying is to cut Amin some slack because he genuinely doesn't understand how you could come up with the questions that you do. They make no sense, from his perspective, and that is why he does not offer answers. How can he? Is that fairly accuracte Amin?

Yours is a splendid insight and clearly posited too. Congratulations. Because, as you said, "Islamic logic is a complete system of thought that follows its own very circular reasoning", Islam is not just a teaching trying to reach out to God. It is also a political system which seeks to become a world state (world government based on Shariat), wipe out all contrary ideas of God and install itself as a perfect system for mankind.

 

[K.Venugopal]

So yes, saying "This Muslim did bad therefore Islam is bad" is irresponsible. But after hundreds and hundreds of separate incidents of Islamic violence occur, the link must be formed.

Well put.

 

[K.Venugopal]

God split the moon through the prophet Muhammad.
The hour has come near, and the moon has split
and if they see a sign , they turn AWAY and say
"passing magic" Qur'an 54,1,2.

Can you please elucidate on this "splitting of the moon"?

 

[~Amin~]

Cool. What is then your objection (if any) to my OP? Would you pray to your God to reveal HImself in the manner and method that I propose in the OP, or not? If not...why not?.

My objection is you want us to ask God things which contradict what God has revealed, I would not ask God for what you propose
because it contradicts revelation, this may be a LITTLE HEAVY for you but you
asked for it.

And those who DO NOT expect the meeting with us say, "why were
not the angels sent down to us, OR WHY DO WE NOT SEE OUR LORD?"
Indeed, they think too HIGHLY of THEMSELVES, and are scornfull with
GREAT pride Qur'an 25,21.
was that too much for you,
This indicates the awesomeness of God He has the power to be loved and be
devoted to with out being seen, so if He has this power, i ASK you why should
He be seen?

So...I'll take this as a "yes"? Allah could use the night sky as a "messenger" of His Will? If so, then why not pray that Allah fulfill the prayers of His faithful in manifesting the "miracle" as proposed in my OP?

Because And even if we opened to them a gate from the heaven and
they continued therein to ascend, They(atheists) would say, "our eyes
have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic"
Qur'an 15.14,15.
You just dont get it, Even if all this happened you cant believe unless God wills,
everything is in His Control, and many atheiests ive spoken to(not all)
ask silly things and when you answer them, they make ridiculous remarks and think
that there smart. Even if God did these things you would look for excuses to disbelieve, you see most atheists dont ask questions to know, they rather ask to find
mistakes and to mock, if you dont believe me look carefuly at th responses.

How about then a "message" that entails redirecting the entirety of the cosmos to say, "I am God...and I told you so...according to Qur'an 3,190"?

I already answered this.

OK. Please define (basically) how God "shows" a "miracle"? You tell me.

The miracles of God are CLEAR, just coz you reject them
doesn't make them false, on the contrary, it PROVES all that God says
in His Revelation.

Jabberwocky. Let's get back on topic, if you please.

This was clearly ON the topic.

RF is but a hobby, a distraction of amusement and entertainment for me. My wife's concerns always come first. ALWAYS.

This remark of yours, made me feel as though I'm putting RF before
my family, was i right? if so, its NOT trivial.

And you cant will UNLESS God wills the Almighty.