Atheists: What moral grounds do you base your views on?

[Photonic]

Say what is to be say. Believe what you want to believe. But I honestly telling the truth. Al-Quran mention about it, hadith mention about it and the ulama' from the past also write about it. All the discussion about sorcery may make Islam sound nuts, but it do exist.

Why in the world I suppose to believe in a religion that discuss about something that doesn't exist in our daily life? I've experience it. But whether you believe or not, it is exist and always will. I can assure you that I'm dead serious in religion matter. Basically, not believing in God is out of the truth range for me with the present of supernatural.

In popular culture, sorcerer is also described to be in the western world and will be sentenced to death by the King or Queen in the movies. I wonder if they're once practiced in the west.

I could believe you, by proxy believing a book who's only evidence of being fact is itself, or I could believe scientific fact, which has been accumulated by the hard work of thousands of scientists collaborating empirical data over the course of many years, and endlessly testing to prove itself wrong.

This was a murder and a sad waste of life.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

and?

what moral act can god achieve through a person who believes than that of a person who doesn't believe cannot?

We have the next life. It may not all be fair in this world but we will receive the reward sooner or later.

People that live in a bad community and still commit good thing but receive opposite thing as a return may sounds terrible. What make they against bad doing that will give them worldly hell if they can choose to be dragged by the evil flow and not against the flow that will give him the worldly heaven?

This situation will put them in no purpose for being good. We can step on other people to live the worldly heaven we archiving for in this extremely limited and temporary life.

But it's not for religious people. Every doing is rewarded and punished. You may save for now but not forever. The concept of the next life solved it all. You don't lose anything by being good even if you receive opposites in return in your particular life but you'll be rewarded in your next life.

 

[9Westy9]

Open you eyes. There are millions of children starving in Africa right now whereas in the western world most children are sat at home playing video games. You call that fair?



and this is due to atheism? How do you know this?



I'd tell them that life isn't fair. Point them to what their life would be like if they were born in Africa for example. Then re-assure them that they're doing the right thing. The next step would then be to help make their life better in whatever way possible.



lol what? Care to explain?

bump.

 

[waitasec]

We have the next life. It may not all be fair in this world but we will receive the reward sooner or later.

no the here and now...
people apply their morals in the here and now, do they not?

what moral act can god achieve through a person who believes than that of a person who doesn't believe cannot do?

 

[waitasec]

People that live in a bad community and still commit good thing but receive opposite thing as a return may sounds terrible. What make they against bad doing that will give them worldly hell if they can choose to be dragged by the evil flow and not against the flow that will give him the worldly heaven?

so? what does that have to do with basing your morality on?

This situation will put them in no purpose for being good. We can step on other people to live the worldly heaven we archiving for in this extremely limited and temporary life.

yes we can, but people don't do that normally...otherwise there would be complete chaos everywhere...which is something humans have been able to figure out.
people are good to others because every normal person, who isn't a sociopath, has a sense of empathy...do you know what that word means?
are human beings social? do humans have the capacity to reason?
are humans capable of applying both empathy and reason in order to figure out a way that is beneficial to themselves as well as those they are associated with?

But it's not for religious people. Every doing is rewarded and punished. You may save for now but not forever. The concept of the next life solved it all. You don't lose anything by being good even if you receive opposites in return in your particular life but you'll be rewarded in your next life.

well your wrong. because you can't answer my question, without contradicting yourself.

what moral act can god achieve through a person who believes than that of a person who doesn't believe?

here's a hint....
_____________________ .

 

[URAVIP2ME]

what are you talking about? the ability to reason?
all social animals have this ability.

Isn't reason problem solving?
Whereas conscience should tell us right from wrong.
Conscience being the capacity to look at one's self and render judgment about oneself, hence conscience judges with the sense of right from wrong.
In order to do that correctly one needs correct standards or values.
That is why incorrect values or morals can lead to having a weak conscience.
Conscience will soon leave off talking to those who do not wish to hear it.

Just like being arrested for slaughter in war crimes there can be contrasting reactions to the same crime.
One person can have a tormented conscience where the other can feel justified.

According to Scripture the religious leaders of Jesus day had twisted thinking.
They felt No guilty conscience when offered 30 silver pieces for innocent Jesus.

Despite profound differences among the world's cultures, aren't actions such as:
murder, theft, lying, incest and adultery almost universally viewed as being wrong ?
Is that by social pressure or by man's inborn nature?


When you say 'social animals' are you including the four-legged animals ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's simple.
If you done a good deed but to live a life full of misery, you're unlucky.
If you done a good deed and live a cheerful life, you're lucky.
If you done evil deed and sentenced to prison for your whole life, you're unlucky.
If you done evil deed and can enjoy your rewards, you're kind of lucky.
In the end, it's unlucky to certain people. What should these lucky think of these unlucky people? Maybe, they will think that they deserve it. Not fair..

Asaph [Psalm 73] wondered about the prosperity of the wicked.
Unlike the righteous, Asaph [verse 18] saw the wicked were on slippery ground. Slippery ground because their ultimate end is destruction.

King Solomon, who was known to have God-given wisdom, came to the conclusion that time or chance or unforeseen occurrences befall us all.
Just like the 18 people that died at the tower of Siloam were just at the wrong place and wrong time.

-Ecclesiastes 9v11; Luke 13vs4,5

 

[Straw Dog]

I'm not questioning whether you have morals or not, to avoid any misunderstanding. What I'm asking is, is there any universal standard for morals, in your opinion? And if there isn't, what grounds are your morals based upon?

I believe that morality is highly over-rated and more often then not leads to hypocrisy within the individual and within society. This occurs because strict ethical codes attempt to impose an ideal self onto the natural self. I guess I would say my thinking is amoral, but not necessarily immoral in your eyes. Probably most of my behavior would be considered ethical by most people, but I'm just trying to be internally consistent with my social and natural environment. I think that a better approach is to focus instead on one's personal sense of integrity, that is having internal consistency with the external experience. This is the surest way to safeguard against hypocrisy.

Everyone is different to some degree, but we also share some fundamental similarities that enable us to coexist naturally. It could be argued that strict ethical codes cause more division and in-group/out-group conflicts due to the need to promote one's group sense of self-righteousness over those of others. Instead I believe in accepting people as they naturally are and learning to live harmoniously with one another with the intention of achieving natural equilibrium. Sure, I'll never feel morally superior to anyone else, but I also won't ever buy into the self-righteous image being projected by many religious and political leaders around the world either.

 

[waitasec]

Isn't reason problem solving?
Whereas conscience should tell us right from wrong.

isn't that problem solving

good grief

 

[waitasec]

Despite profound differences among the world's cultures, aren't actions such as:
murder, theft, lying, incest and adultery almost universally viewed as being wrong ?
Is that by social pressure or by man's inborn nature?

i'm not sure about incest the standard for what qualifies as incest varies ...and adultery is also subjective...we have polygamy.
however lets think about the things you listed.
because of our sense of empathy, we know that what you listed (excluding incest and adultery) would be something we wouldn't want to be done to ourselves...
that is why we have developed laws against such things, capiche?

When you say 'social animals' are you including the four-legged animals ?

yes. do some research on your own and you will see that social animals have this ability.

 

[Photonic]

Atheists strike again with their immorality.

Irreverent atheists crowdsource charitable giving | Reuters

 

[Caladan]

I'm not questioning whether you have morals or not, to avoid any misunderstanding. What I'm asking is, is there any universal standard for morals, in your opinion? And if there isn't, what grounds are your morals based upon?

Reason is a main source of my morality, conscience as well. and of course other moral standards that are the attributes of my social environment.
to expand more on universal standards of morals: many cultures hold different standards. in some cultures women are commonly being held down, some cultures are more authoritarian, etc. etc.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Those who don't violate game theory and forget that it's a zero sum game. In essence to follow Poly's statement one must advance their own survival which logically is at the cost of another.

And only those who would step on others' necks to get ahead forget that stepping on necks is not necessary to get ahead. That's what you seem to be overlooking; that advancing your own survival doesn't mean that it has to be at the cost of another. At the very least, it doesn't mean it has to be achieved immorally, illegally or unethically.

 

[waitasec]

Those who don't violate game theory and forget that it's a zero sum game. In essence to follow Poly's statement one must advance their own survival which logically is at the cost of another.

some logic you got there
:areyoucra

 

[AhmadSyahir]

I could believe you, by proxy believing a book who's only evidence of being fact is itself, or I could believe scientific fact, which has been accumulated by the hard work of thousands of scientists collaborating empirical data over the course of many years, and endlessly testing to prove itself wrong.

This was a murder and a sad waste of life.

I don't discover sorcery by book. When I was a child, I always exposed to this kind of practice. I began to think what is sorcery. Now I realize that it's written in Al-Quran. Basically, I experience it first before I found it on the book.

If you have a free time, go visit Indonesian and Malaysian online community. Both country have sorcery practiced. Well, you can't say everything to deny me, but I know what I experienced myself.

Check this video out:[youtube]SmlpeYnFNdA[/youtube]
Real Bulletproof Man Die - YouTube
See the comment for yourself.

The video is a news from Indonesia about a 'bulletproof' man. 107 shot by the police. The man only die when his medium(ring) was destroyed. The video is from TV news, not a personal video.

If the comment is disbelieving, it's from western and those who has experienced it are from the east and locals.

In the end, all of it is up to you to believe. I personally swear that it do exist and practiced by locals.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

isn't that problem solving
good grief

We can use the faculty of 'reason' to figure out or calculate how to build something.
That in itself has nothing to do with morally right or wrong

A school child uses reason in his studies.

Moral issues involve conscience matters of right and wrong.

 

[Photonic]

I don't discover sorcery by book. When I was a child, I always exposed to this kind of practice. I began to think what is sorcery. Now I realize that it's written in Al-Quran. Basically, I experience it first before I found it on the book.

If you have a free time, go visit Indonesian and Malaysian online community. Both country have sorcery practiced. Well, you can't say everything to deny me, but I know what I experienced myself.

Check this video out:[youtube]SmlpeYnFNdA[/youtube]
Real Bulletproof Man Die - YouTube
See the comment for yourself.

The video is a news from Indonesia about a 'bulletproof' man. 107 shot by the police. The man only die when his medium(ring) was destroyed. The video is from TV news, not a personal video.

If the comment is disbelieving, it's from western and those who has experienced it are from the east and locals.

In the end, all of it is up to you to believe. I personally swear that it do exist and practiced by locals.

Nah, I'll pass going to an Islamic country. They tend to try and kill people like me.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

Nah, I'll pass going to an Islamic country. They tend to try and kill people like me.

You choose to ignore. But nothing will change. I grow up seeing different world from the western. For me, I don't ever care about miracle when I was a child. I just don't feel weird about it because it's common. In the name of Allah, I don't lie in this matter. I'm very serious and I'm quite surprise to know that none of the westerner even realize it. I can't describe how it feel to ignore something that is very common. Good luck with Ignorance if you choose to. But hold onto my word, I'm not lying to you.

 

[Looncall]

You choose to ignore. But nothing will change. I grow up seeing different world from the western. For me, I don't ever care about miracle when I was a child. I just don't feel weird about it because it's common. In the name of Allah, I don't lie in this matter. I'm very serious and I'm quite surprise to know that none of the westerner even realize it. I can't describe how it feel to ignore something that is very common. Good luck with Ignorance if you choose to. But hold onto my word, I'm not lying to you.

In the west we do have people known as magicians, but also as illusionists. I guess that you have similar where you are.

Can you direct us to any serious studies of your magicians?

I believe you think you are telling the truth. What I am not sure of is whether you are suffering from delusions, perhaps having been the victim of hoaxes.

 

[waitasec]

Moral issues involve conscience matters of right and wrong.

problem solving nonetheless...


matters of right and wrong are subjective matters.