Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Subduction Zone]

One mans vision accepted by many does not make that ones mans vision true . The reality is uncertainty and scientists best guesses was evolution based on similarities .
The problem is if you claim we evolved from apes , then Darwin needs to explain where apes came from and so on until you reach a point of no answer . What came first the chicken or the egg ?
The real answer is unknown because we don't have the history records of this .

Incorrect on almost every claim. If it was just one man's vision, like most of the Bible, then you would have a valid point. But evolution has been observed at all levels. The evidence for it is endless, The evidence against it is non-existent. And scientists have explained where everything came from.

You are extremely inconsistent in your demands for evidence. If you were anywhere close in demanding the same evidence from your side you would end up being the staunchest atheist ever.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can it be an option if you are bound to choose it and what the hell is the purpose of all the test in real life, if God knows before hand what choices we are going to make.

Why do you think you were bound to choose only one option?

What God knows has nothing to do with what we choose to do. God's all-encompassing knowledge is an attribute of God.

The fact that God knows everything you will ever do does not mean that life is not a test for you. Life is still a test for you, and as you go through life you are proving your worthiness whenever you pass those tests.

 

[Link]

Why do you think you were bound to choose only one option?

What God knows has nothing to do with what we choose to do. God's all-encompassing knowledge is an attribute of God.

The fact that God knows everything you will ever do does not mean that life is not a test for you. Life is still a test for you, and as you go through life you are proving your worthiness whenever you pass those tests.

You aren't proving anything if God already knows. There is no options if God already knows. You can only choose the one God knows. It's simple.

You are going to have choose God over whoever told you God knows the future.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

2 claims, zero objective evidence.

The best evidence is one's own self. Truth is relative to our frames of references.

Even the greatest scientific proofs can alter when we gain new scientific evidences.

The spirit is not found by the 5 material senses, which are not the creative force, but derived from it. The spirit is found by looking within and contemplating the forces behind the material existence.

In fact Einstein tapped into this greater knowledge.

Einstein’s Unique Approach to Thinking | Evernote

“How strange is the lot of us mortals! Each of us is here for a brief sojourn; for what purpose he knows not, though he sometimes thinks he senses it. But without deeper reflection one knows from daily life that one exists for other people…a hundred times every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as I have received and am still receiving,” Einstein

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I will explain.

To you past, present, future all exist because God is beyond time.

To me God exists beyond time but also interacts with time, and future, and past don't exist, just the present.

But in the model you choose, let's say in that infinite line of past, present and future, sometime before judgement day, you make a choice in real life.

Right, what options are there? There are none, they only appear as options, but the only one that can happen is the one that already exists, because to you past, present, future all exist at the same time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There are only 2 to make, I can only make 1, you claimed a deity knew which 1 before I made it, thus the other 1 is not an option, else your deity would be wrong.

The other 1 IS an option..
It's not that you CAN'T choose it .. it's that you don't WANT to choose it.
If you HAD wanted to choose it, then G-d would have known.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a famous "paradox".
It relies on misleading a person by making an apparently convincing argument.

..you say "thus the other 1 is not an option".
It seems right, but it isn't .. you DO have an option.
You don't WANT to choose it. Simple as that.

 

[Link]

The other 1 IS an option..
It's not that you CAN'T choose it .. it's that you don't WANT to choose it.
If you HAD wanted to choose it, then G-d would have known.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a famous "paradox".
It relies on misleading a person by making an apparently convincing argument.

..you say "thus the other 1 is not an option".
It seems right, but it isn't .. you DO have an option.
You don't WANT to choose it. Simple as that.

But it's impossible to want to choose otherwise if he is bound to choose it. Free-will is impossible with future, past and present all existing at the same time.

It's only possible if future is not destined nor known nor determined, and the moment you do the decision, there is more then one possible outcome.

 

[Sheldon]

if a deity existed and knew which ONE we will choose, before we make it, then that rationally DOES NOT negate the other choice because we could have made the other choice in which case the deity would have known that other choice was the one we would make before we made it.

Does it know which one of the two choices I will make? Or are you know saying it just knows I will have choices and make one, as that is describing any human.

There is no such thing as 'before hand' for the deity. The deity knows all things simultaneously and does not exist in time.

Well you are now just reeling off unevidenced claims, however before you shift the goal posts we are talking about the reality of whether what humans choose is in fact real or as your claim implies an illusion

The deity's knowledge of everything that is going to happen in this world in no way affects what happens in this world.

Of course it would, again faced with just 2 mutually exclusive choices, if a deity existed that knew before I made the choice, which one I will choose, then my choice doesn't exist for me.

 

[Sheldon]

You are correct about this, but it's impossible to know the future because it has not happened. So why argue over an impossibility?

It was not presented as an impossibility and this is a debate forum?

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no options if God already knows. You can only choose the one God knows. It's simple.

What are you saying?
..that there is no such thing as free-will?
i.e. we don't have the ability to make decisions

 

[Trailblazer]

It's simple, if God knows the future, it means he determined to be that before hand, and you are going to choose the one he knows you are going to choose.

That's right, you are going to choose what God knows you will choose since God knows what you will choose, but as you just said you are going to choose, so that means you have free will to choose..

There is no way to know the future unless God determined it before hand. He is above doing that, so the future is unknown.

God knows the future but God has not determined the future. Humans determine the future by doing what God knows we will do.

Also, how do you pray to God thinking it's all set.

I do not think it is all set. I believe there is an impending fate and an irrevocable fate and Baha'u'llah explained the difference between the two kinds of fates.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

 

[Sheldon]

There are only 2 to make, you can only make 1. I claimed a deity knew which 1 before you made it, but I also claimed that the other choice would have been an option.

Nope, 2-1 is not 2.

 

[Link]

What are you saying?
..that there is no such thing as free-will?
i.e. we don't have the ability to make decisions

I'm saying God is testing us in real time to really get to know us and really see who will enter paradise and who will strive and to see who is best in works. This is not a vain test, nor just a display for our sake, the verses talking about God is yet to know those who will strive and enter paradise and yet to know who is best in works etc, are literal and nothing allegorical can be made out of it.

There is no reason to assume future is known. This was made up by philosophers when Quran says otherwise.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You aren't proving anything if God already knows. There is no options if God already knows. You can only choose the one God knows. It's simple.

You are going to have choose God over whoever told you God knows the future.

I see God puts multiple options in front of us.

As God knows our choice, the alternate choices are also made available, and a lot of the time we actually contemplate those choices in prayer and meditation, but then bow out to do our own will, as we did not like the options, or saw the option as an unachievable dream.

God does not make those choices for us, but God is the only one that knows our heart and our end.

That to me is why we can never judge another heart, because we do not know their heart and the fate that God has chosen for them. It may be that we are on the wrong path to destruction and that they are on the path to the narrow gate and salvation.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

The Quran is in fact clear, God doesn't know who will strive among us, and who will not, beforehand, he is testing us in real time.

 

[Sheldon]

Please explain why if God knows the future there are no options to choose from.

2 choices, only 1 can be made, if as you claim a deity exists that KNOWS which 1 we will make, this means it knew the other was NOT an option.

 

[Link]

People prefer opinions of their great men and leaders over the words of God it seems. This is my experience with Muslims.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But it's impossible to want to choose otherwise..

Of course it is.
That doesn't negate free-will.
Free-will is only negated if something FORCES us to choose..

..which is not the case. We freely choose whatever we wish.

For example, I am free to choose whether I reply to your post.
There is no other making that choice for me..
[ unless I'm prevented by "an act of God", such as having a heart attack .. or my network goes down ]

 

[Link]

Of course it is.
That doesn't negate free-will.
Free-will is only negated if something FORCES us to choose..

..which is not the case. We freely choose whatever we wish.

For example, I am free to choose whether I reply to your post.
There is no other making that choice for me..
[ unless I'm prevented by "an act of God", such as having a heart attack .. or my network goes down ]

That's not reality. We are forced to choose the one that is set in time, whether we do it willingly or not, there is no other option but that one.

I made a thread about God not knowing the future per Quran.

 

[Trailblazer]

You aren't proving anything if God already knows. There is no options if God already knows. You can only choose the one God knows. It's simple.

You proving that you are worthy has nothing to do with what God knows. The fact that God already knows you will prove you are worthy does not mean you do not have to live life and thereby prove you are worthy.

You are going to have choose God over whoever told you God knows the future.

I don't know whoever told you that God does not know the future. How can an all-knowing God not know the future?