Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

Lol, who cares whose shirt choices they are, the principle is the same.
Deflection will not get you anywhere.

It's still irrelevant. God knew what shirt would be worn, wether by me or you or anyone else, so as soon as he knew, we were bound to wear that particular shirt.

 

[Tiberius]

That's deflection.
No it is not irrelevant because you are saying we have no free will. If the shirt color was not chosen by you and put on your body then how did it get on your body? Did little fairies put it there?

That's the most ridiculous argument ever.

In Jurassic Park, the lawyer jumps out of the car and runs for the toilet. I know he will do that as soon as I start watching the movie. So he has no free choice,. I know he MUST run for the toilet. But if it's not his choice and it's not mine (I'm not making him run for the toilet, after all), then what's making him run?

Perhaps it's those same fairies that are making him run!

You made a free choice to determine which outcome it would be. There was not only one possible outcome but there will be only one outcome because there cannot be two different outcomes. If there had been a different outcome then God would have foreseen that outcome instead of the other one.

But there was only one possible outcome once God had foreseen it, wasn't there? If God foresees that I will wear the red shirt, then wearing the red shirt is the only possible outcome.

 

[Tiberius]

It can be checked if you want to go to all the trouble to check it.

You literally just said you can not know it. Now you are saying you CAN know it.

Once again, you change your position on a whim.

 

[Tiberius]

And whenever you said you disagreed you made claims about God and religion which were not verifiable or scientific, and as such they were only personal opinions.

Please give me an example.

No, that is not what I said at all. I know what your position is so I am making a straw man.

Let's stay on task. You said that unlike me you rely upon testable and verifiable evidence and I said that you do not rely upon testable and verifiable evidence for anything you are saying about God or religion since there is no such evidence for God or religion. THAT was the context.

It is testable and verifiable that any and all arguments I have seen presented for the existence of any deity rely on logical fallacies of some kind. It is also demnonstrable that there is nothing that is objectively known about the real world that requires a God.

That all religion is bunk is not logical at all because religion is the backbone of society and the cause of all great civilizations, including morality, so a logical person would try to somehow reconcile all the great religions and figure out why religious people do not agree.

First of all, religion is not the backbone of society is. Agriculture and trade is.

Secondly, even if an idea was the backbone of society, that does not mean that the idea is true.

Anyone who would expect to procure objective evidence for supernatural claims is drop dead illogical.

I do not need objective evidence for the supernatural claims because I have objective evidence that shows that the Baha'i Faith is true and if the religion is true then the supernatural claims are also true. That is how logic works.

You are contradictory.

You claim you do not need any objective evidence for any supernatural claims. You have also stated that the idea of objective evidence for supernatural claims is "drop dead illogical."

Yet you then state you have objective evidence that the Baha'i faith is true.

The Baha'i faith, however, makes supernatural claims. Specifically, "God exists," and "God sends messengers."

If you claim to have objective evidence for the Baha'i faith, you are saying you have objective evidence that the supernatural claims of the Baha'i faith. And you said that was impossible and illogical.

 

[rational experiences]

Science. Men on earth as humans arguing.
Basic common sense.

O earth one God. The planet. All massive reactions laws first were planet owned first.

Not cosmic for life on earth survival.

Man consciousness lives in a non physical God body. The heavens.

Irradiated. Radiation mass is dense metals.

Gets brain defected lies. In heavens consciousness.

Says laws by burning gas light in voiding vacuum is why clear gas exists.

Words first state I am told clear gas exists is natural only.

Immaculate. Yet sacrificed body state light that travels in vacuum heavens is not the immaculate.

Discusses historic vision memories from Universal cohabitation. State of recording was by light owned historic huge mass conversions. Recorded held in gas visions.

Star groups owned earth memories recorded of its destroyed body mass.

Communicated back visionary why men making movies can portray earths destruction by hologram status machines as stars owned records.

What physically had occurred to earth as a physical body. Earth's history. Why we knew what human sciences had caused.

Your mind totally possessed as a thinker.

Church temple prayer meditation music dance oils perfumes all applied to ground your life mind body back to self realisation. On earth. Human being.

Self centring for and against self centred man's maths egotism.

The law non physical reaction is earth mass conferred direct. To the planet mass make it disappear is the science thesus.

Always had been removal of earths mass itself in theory.

As man wanted one earth God to disappear in science and just be its heavens. The theoretic answer about light.

So Muslims rejected Jesus teaching but accepted Jesus. Said cloud image owned man on cross. Still seen today. Cloud images cloud reactions a cooling effect.

Clouds were not owned by man in science in other words.

Stated I don't accept temple thesis of pyramid. So his model to agreed survival was about humans water spirit taken to cool the asteroid. Stone in space.

Said it had saved life yet sacrificed life also. So re enacts the memory bodily. Made it a ceremony.

Particular teachings owned particular acceptances in scientific papers.

Jesus sin holes he said not acceptable. Gods body disappeared.

Reason for a science argument.

Hence ice on asteroid first and heavens flooding were accepted highest saviour statuses. Reasoned only.

O earths law to make gods stone body disappear was to take life removed of it's standing human by feet into opened tectonic carpenter volcanic mass.

Which is disappearance of God the planet stone into inheriting what you never wanted. What was inside as core heart of earth.

Hence to make God disappear equals volcanic mass first inheritance on the outside of earth after plates open.... then make it disappear also to equals cold clear gas only.

When you want immaculate in its state an actual non reacting body. Just a heavenly thesis whilst mass radiation mind defected. The physical state yet not physical as mass.

To say let the void suck out volcanic mass as particles next to become just a gas.

Based on ideas the immaculate came out of volcanic gases first natural earth only histories. Mass as volcano first.

Invention to copy by machine causes then cause natural history in cosmos myself idealism. Human theist.

Destroyer man's mind. Thesis.

Stated by the Isis.
The sis.
I...the extra terrestrial magnetism symbolism lied in my mind.

A human teaching about why life was sacrificed by man thin king.

TH numbers O Th O Th.
Th Is Is i.e.sus. the nose point reasoned.

Ground pyramid science ∆ - ground minus left ^ nose point only. Sus meant nose of pig.

Relationship when attacked pigs body gained infestation now meat unholy. Infestations everywhere holy water body bacterias microbes changed advice. Irradiated destroyed.

Why mountains fell into disintegration of its face laying now at its feet. Why temple steps melted. Law mountain broken.

Nuclear converting owned two sun causes to stone body. The law advice against God existing broken by men in science.

The teaching. Why holy blood was changed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of course it isn't.. [ saying that Allah does not know the future ]

187 They ask thee of the (destined) Hour, when will it come to port. Say: Knowledge thereof is with my Lord only. He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the earth. It cometh not to you save unawares. They question thee as if thou couldst be well informed thereof. Say: Knowledge thereof is with Allah only, but most of mankind know not.
-surah Al A'raf-

The above verse is saying that only God knows when the end of the world will be.

110 He knoweth (all) that is before them and (all) that is behind them, while they cannot compass it in knowledge.
-surah Ta Ha-

and of course, Ayat-ul-kursi..

255 Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

Is that for @Link?

Regards Tony

 

[Tiberius]

Evidence.

And if the evidence is real and valid, then everyone who examines it should reach the same conclusion, right?

I never said it was.

Then your private "verification" that you can't share with anyone else doesn't count as actual verification.

Baha’u’llah foresaw WWI and WWII in His Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I.

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.”

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

A comment about gore on the banks of the Rhine isn't really specific. Is that about WW1, WW2 or the Kaiser? Also, were there actual dead bodies lined up along the banks of the Rhine in the way this describes?Maybe if he'd said something about the trenches in France, or the air raids over England, that kind of thing, it would be more convincing. But as it is, the prophecy fails point five of my criteria (you can see the list in my signature).

Yes, I agree.

Then there's no rational reason why anyone should believe it.

That's right if you are referring to the older religions that cannot be verified, but it is not true of the Baha'i Faith as the history can be determined as objectively true.

So what? People of all religions say that history proves their religion true. You're not making any claim that followers of any other religion haven't made. I see no reason to think you are right when they have been wrong.

Scriptures can have more than one interpretation hat is true since the same scripture can mean many different things.

This doesn't actually address my point.

If it actually describes reality in some way, then it is not open to interpretation.

We do have a way, because of what the Baha'i Faith has revealed about the older religions and what is correct and incorrect.

Circular logic. You are assuming that the Baha'i faith is the correct interpretation in order to show that the Baha'i faith is the correct interpretation.

We can verify that it is true by independent investigation of the religion, including the facts about Baha'u'llah and facts about the history of the Baha'i Faith and also facts about the Baha'i Faith in general, its teachings, etc.

No one is disputing those claims. The point you seem to not realise is that the supernatural claims of the religion can be false even if the things you mentioned are true.

Everything I say is not a declaration, some of it is just stating my beliefs.

Yet it comes across as a declaration so often.

 

[Tiberius]

No, not at all.
You say "if you do something different"..
It is not possible by definition

That does not mean that you have no free choice, it means that God knows that you don't want to choose anything different.

Irrelevant. It is still something with a possibility of zero. And that means it's not a choice.

 

[Tiberius]

No .. That would be because he didn't WANT to choose something different

So what's stopping him from wanting it?

OK

And you have STILL not picked an argument from your post 2342. I will keep asking you until you do so.

 

[rational experiences]

O earth a multi nation of ground UFO attack. Fallout. Man's owned fall of causes.

The teaching the alienation of man.

Was for everyone.

All scientific theists Multi national owned different ground life body attacks.

Shared just like we do today scientific data. In communal world group meetings.

As nationality genesis is country owned actually a teaching was given a national status. Even though the scientific ideology where it began was universal.

What your mentality problem is today.

Men as in fear use their science evils technologies to blow self up and family. Taught all life is holy.

So you must ask what brother are you trying to irrationally teach me in your human desperation?

Science is our destroyer. See me the life causer of all wrongs to family before you all inherit it yourselves.

As they too claim I am a messenger of God.

See yourselves yet man scientists?

See what irrational behaviour life inherited due to science?

 

[CG Didymus]

"I claim that God has infallible foreknowledge of what choice we will make, but I do not claim that we will make choices different from the choices God knows we will make."

I never said that it ends the way God wants it to end, so all the pain, suffering, diseases, natural disaster and all the rest of the bad stuff is not necessarily part of what he wanted even though it is what He allowed.

All the death and suffering might someday get us to finally turn to him and love each other or it might not. It all depends upon how we respond to it, how we interpret it.

It better be peace and harmony and all that good stuff, or what was the point? It's just that since he created all this, did he have to make people this prone to evil? We have to imprison or execute the worst of us. But there's not that many that we could call the best of us. And too many times the bad ones kill the good ones. To me, it's a crazy design.

Even the Christian belief that there is a Satan doesn't help much, because the all-knowing, all-loving God created him. What's that all about? God knows that, because of the way he made humans, most people would listen more to the devil than to him. So it's great that the Baha'i Faith dumps Satan out of the equation, but that still leaves this supposedly all-loving God that created humans with the ability and desire to kill each other. And then gave them the brains to figure out better ways to do it. I'm sure he appreciates that you don't blame him.

 

[rational experiences]

It better in peace and harmony and all that good stuff, or what was the point? It's just that since he created all this, did he have to make people this prone to evil? We have to imprison or execute the worst of us. But there's not that many that we could call the best of us. And too many times the bad ones kill the good ones. To me, it's a crazy design.

Even the Christian belief that there is a Satan doesn't help much, because the all-knowing, all-loving God created him. What's that all about? God knows that, because of the way he made humans, most people would listen more to the devil than to him. So it's great that the Baha'i Faith dumbs Satan out of the equation, but that still leaves this supposedly all-loving God that created humans with the ability and desire to kill each other. And then gave them the brains to figure out better ways to do it. I'm sure he appreciates that you don't blame him.

Rationally earth once existed first historic as a higher massed planet and atmosphere.

First human designer pyramid. Machine parts found by archaeology in deep earth digs. Human artefacts machine parts snap frozen instant. The evidence a true story.

Psyche mind visionary voice recorded of science of man memories tells him direct.... you do know the father of earths new inherited form was caused by the human father of science!!!!

Rational human conscious self advised man memories. Why you believed earth O a planet a God as a man realisation.

I only heard the self man mind advice in AI conscious attack by science choice new human man life. Irradiated hurt prickled brain head status.

To know in sacrificed life.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry, that argument is flawed.
You say the other choice can't be made..
More to the point, YOU DIDN'T WANT TO CHOOSE it.
That's why it can't be made, because God KNEW you would not choose it.

It has nothing to do with one's power to choose.
..and that is what you are implying.

So in this argument it is like God has seen that moment already played out and knows which direction the guy turns and what shirt he is wearing. But, I hear religious people say that they planning on doing something, but only if it is God's will. They are including God in the choices they make. Does God actually get involved? Like if the person turns right he would have gotten hit by a bus, so God told him, in God's mystic way, to turn left.

If there is a God, and he actually cares about people that love him and pray to him, this is what I'd expect God to be doing. So the future isn't just that God knows what's going to happen, but knows what will happen if the wrong choice is made and he does try to intervene and communicate to his people what the right choice, to turn right or turn left would be. Do you believe this or in something like this? Because, like I said, if God isn't involved and actually helps those that believe in him and trust him, then what good is he? Anyway, I hear that from Christians all the time that God does guide them. But then, the scary part, most all religions have their extremists that hear God telling them to kill others.

 

[CG Didymus]

I understand that this is just too far over your head to understand but don't feel bad because I have been discussing it with atheists for nine years and as I recall only one atheist ever understood it.

But since I am a glutton for punishment I keep trying to explain it.

There is not only one choice you could make. You could have made any choices that were available to you.
Whatever choice you decided to make, God would have known that was the choice you would make since God is all-knowing.

Okay, let me try... God knows what choice the guy makes. He turns right. He knows this because this unknowable, invisible, unprovable God exists in a spiritual realm and can see the beginning and the end of everything.... Which includes everything this guy has ever done. God has already it happen. Now the guy comes to the street corner and thinks, "Should I turn left or right?" The choice is all his. He might choose right he might choose left. Today he turns right.

The next day he thinks, "You know... I went right yesterday. Let me do something different." So he goes left and gets hit by a bus. Up in heaven he asks God, "Why didn't you warn me. You know all, so why didn't you stop me from going left?" God says, "Listen, I'm not going to interfere with your free-will. You're on your own and you can make any choice you want. But remember when your Momma used to tell you to look both ways before you cross the street. Well, that was me that got her to tell you that. Besides, I know what you were looking at on your phone. You should be ashamed of yourself."

Oh, and something else you can answer... That's a fictional story. Is it metaphorical just because it is fiction?

 

[CG Didymus]

I will explain.

To you past, present, future all exist because God is beyond time.

To me God exists beyond time but also interacts with time, and future, and past don't exist, just the present.

But in the model you choose, let's say in that infinite line of past, present and future, sometime before judgement day, you make a choice in real life.

Right, what options are there? There are none, they only appear as options, but the only one that can happen is the one that already exists, because to you past, present, future all exist at the same time.

I like that much better. The various future outcomes can then be known to God, but a person can turn to God and God can interact with him and it sets up a different future. Yeah, the other way doesn't really give people real choice. But then again, God doesn't know which choice we were going to make? Anyway, I still like that way better.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no could if in that moment of time, you will choose the one God knows no matter what.

You will choose the one God knows but you could have chosen the other one and God would have known you would choose it.

 

[Trailblazer]

God doesn't know the future because it doesn't exist.

In the Mind of God, the future has already happened.

 

[CG Didymus]

God knows the future but God has not determined the future. Humans determine the future by doing what God knows we will do.

If we determine the future God help us.

I would think God is the one that has determined the future. 'Cause if it's up to humans... we'll never get there.

And I still didn't catch up. This threads going way too fast. Good night.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well there you go, that negates the other choice(s)

Choice b is only impossible after you have made choice a. Up until then, you could have made choice b and God would have known you were going to make choice b.

 

[Trailblazer]

In which case God wouldn't have foreseen what he foresaw. But he did. And what I did HAD TO match that.

If you had done something different God would have foreseen that.