Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[KWED]

True, but logically speaking, that does not mean that none of them are making true statements.

It does mean that they can all be wrong.
It also means that the vast majority are definitely wrong.
So how is a religionist to know if they are wrong or not, given that they all genuinely believe they are right, and the chances are that they are actually wrong?

 

[Sheldon]

So, how do you know if the voice in your head is really god, or just a psychotic event?
And what do you say to those who also use your explanation to justify their own claims of knowing god's will?

Or just wishful thinking? That would explain everything, fit all the facts, and leave Occam lying peacefully in his grave, what with there being no afterlife after all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Irrelevant. It is still something with a possibility of zero. And that means it's not a choice.

It doesn't. It is something with a possibility of zero..
..but it doesn't mean that you have not made a choice of your own free-will.
It simply means that G-d KNOWS what you want to choose.

Choice b is only impossible after you have made choice a. Up until then, you could have made choice b and God would have known you were going to make choice b.

..that.

How G-d knows what you want to choose is another issue.

 

[KWED]

That is completely illogical because we can make whatever choice we want to make

Question begging. We are attempting to determine if we can make a free choice, so you can't simply assert it as a first premise.

Tell that to the judge -- "Judge, God knew what choice I was going to make so I had no choice but to make that choice!"

If god had not changed his mind, and Abraham had actually obeyed him and killed Isaac, would he have been guilty of murder?

No, in reality, you could have made another choice in which case God would have known that was the choice you would make.

Which leads us to exactly the same place, god having infallible foreknowledge of what we will do, meaning we cannot do anything different.

This is not that difficult.

Indeed.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no "absolute" free will.
In reality we have partial free will, depending on the context.
Under a god with infallible omniscience who wills and decrees the outcome of all events, we have no free will.
Hope this helped.

Nobody is saying that we are totally in control of things that happen.
Some people are determinists, and suggest that free-will is just something that we appear to have, but in reality we are not making those decisions as we HAVE to make the decisions we make, regardless of whether there is an omniscient G-d.
Do you believe this, or do you think our decisions are real?

 

[Sheldon]

Choice b is only impossible after you have made choice a. Up until then, you could have made choice b and God would have known you were going to make choice b.

So faced with two choices, an omniscient deity knows I will choose a or b. Priceless....

 

[Sheldon]

No, you were only bound to wear that shirt after you chose to wear it. God knew you would choose it because God is all-knowing.

Ah now I get it, sorry for the confusion. Your omniscient deity knows what we will choose to do, but AFTER we've done it.

No wait that's just a human being?

 

[KWED]

Sorry, that argument is flawed.
You say the other choice can't be made..
More to the point, YOU DIDN'T WANT TO CHOOSE it.
That's why it can't be made, because God KNEW you would not choose it.

It has nothing to do with one's power to choose.
..and that is what you are implying.

You still don't seem to be able to grasp this...
It is irrelevant what choice we want to make. It is the ability to make other choices, even if we aren't going to make them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's still irrelevant. God knew what shirt would be worn, wether by me or you or anyone else, so as soon as he knew, we were bound to wear that particular shirt.

Prior to putting on the Red shirt the option to put on one of multicoloure(God's Choice for us) was also given, the choice became ours to put on the red only.

Each time we choose to put on the red, the multicoloured is still available.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

It doesn't. It is something with a possibility of zero..
..but it doesn't mean that you have not made a choice of your own free-will.

Love this!
"It is something with a possibility of zero, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible".

 

[KWED]

You could supply your reason as to why the quotes can not be used as evidence for God?

Yeah, not sure you have fully grasped the concept of "evidence".

 

[KWED]

you had more than one choice you could have made.

... had god not fixed that "choice" through his infallible omniscience.

There. That should put this to bed.

 

[KWED]

You are correct about this, but it's impossible to know the future because it has not happened. So why argue over an impossibility?

So god does not know the future?
Interesting.

 

[KWED]

But it's impossible to want to choose otherwise if he is bound to choose it. Free-will is impossible with future, past and present all existing at the same time.

It's only possible if future is not destined nor known nor determined, and the moment you do the decision, there is more then one possible outcome.

The fact that I am agreeing with you leads me to question whether I actually have this all wrong.

 

[KWED]

For once I agree with you. The problem is that for many people they run into severe cognitive dissonance when this problem arises. They cannot afford to understand how it is an extreme contradiction to say that God is omnipotent and omniscient and yet also believe in free will.

I love the way Link has simply re-invented Islam to accommodate his realisation. He's obviously smarter than he looks!

 

[muhammad_isa]

You still don't seem to be able to grasp this...
It is irrelevant what choice we want to make. It is the ability to make other choices, even if we aren't going to make them.

Of course it's not irrelevant what choice we want to make!
That is your whole argument, isn't it?
..that we are not free to choose because we HAVE TO choose what God knows.
Why do we HAVE TO choose what God knows?
Simply, because God knows that we WANT to choose it.

We are free to choose otherwise, if we can choose otherwise if we WANT to choose otherwise.

We choose what we want to choose.
That means our ability to choose is not compromised.
The fact that alternative choices will not be taken is irrelevant.

 

[KWED]

Once again, this manifests itself in cognitive dissonance in some atheists. Simple ideas just cannot be gotten across no matter how hare one tries.

Ooh, I see what you did there!

 

[KWED]

No .. if G-d is not omniscient, then how could any prophet be informed [ by G-d ] of any future events, such as the signs of the last days?

They weren't. Simples!
None of the "prophecies" have been fulfilled (unless you reinterpret them to mean something completely different to what they actually say).
Many are just vague claims of things that have been happening continuously for millennia.

However, feel free to post your three favourite fulfilled prophecies and we can examine them.
(Don't worry, I'm not actually expecting you to do this. Rational examination of claims and evidence is not your MO.)

 

[KWED]

You will choose the one God knows but you could have chosen the other one and God would have known you would choose it.

This is getting ridiculous now.
God cannot know you will choose 2 different options at the same time for the same event, so there is only ever one possible choice, the one he knows you will make.
It is irrelevant that he might have known you would make a different choice, because that one would be the only possible choice.

 

[KWED]

Nobody is saying that we are totally in control of things that happen.
Some people are determinists, and suggest that free-will is just something that we appear to have, but in reality we are not making those decisions as we HAVE to make the decisions we make, regardless of whether there is an omniscient G-d.
Do you believe this, or do you think our decisions are real?

I explained my position quite clearly, so not sure why you would think I am a determinist.

BTW, even under determinism, our decisions are "real", they are just determined by variety of elements. A murder committed by a determinist is still a real murder.