Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

What is means is that if I see that some of the beliefs you espouse have traditionally lead to actions that I consider to be unsavory, that I am not challenging Baha'i (as you claimed) because I am afraid that your beliefs might be correct. I am challenging you on the basis that some of your beliefs have traditionally been a highway to horror.

Which Baha'i beliefs have have traditionally lead to actions that you consider to be unsavory and have traditionally been a highway to horror?

 

[ppp]

Can you list all the religions that have aspired to become a theocratic tyrannical hegemony or have become one?

No.

 

[ppp]

Which Baha'i beliefs have have traditionally lead to actions that you consider to be unsavory and have traditionally been a highway to horror?

I will give you the top five:
Number one. The belief that you have a mandate from God.
Number two: The conviction that your beliefs are necessarily correct and moral.
Number three: A moral code that is primary.
Number four: The belief that your religion should have a say in government.
Number five: The belief that your religion is destined to save the world.

 

[Tiberius]

Tell me something I do not know.

I am. You've refused to believe that peer review had any benefit at all until very recently. You stated many times that peer review actually introduced MORE bias, which is completely untrue.

But peer review is not part of the process of selecting a religion to believe in.

It should be a part of ANY process that seeks to find the truth.

No, I never claimed to know, I only ever said I know. That is not a claim, it is a statement of certitude regarding my belief.

Yeah, it's a claim. Your constant hiding behind that weak defense is growing tiresome.

It occurred every time you offered an opinion about Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i Faith.
You base your conclusion on your subjective interpretation the objective facts, and that is your biased personal opinion.

There are quirte a few people in this thread that agree with me. My peers have reviewed my posts and are in agreement. See how good peer review is?

Why would it MATTER what other people think? That is just their personal opinion, it cannot be proven as a fact.

It matters because people come in here and start spouting their religious beliefs as true and that everyone else's beliefs are false.

That is absolutely false and I could prove it if I wanted to waste my time going back through the posts.

I have provided a justification for my disagreement, over and over and over and over and over and over again, but you just blow me off. By stark contrast, I responded to what you say and explained why peer review is not appropriate for choosing a religious belief.

Please, go right ahead. I will show you how anything you presented as justification is nothing more that, "Nope, 'fraid not!"

Then why not just agree to disagree and call it a day? I do not want to argue about this anymore. Baha'u'llah said that if two people argue they are both wrong.

because you just won't let it go. You keep respondiong with the same flawed arguments.

And are you saying you are wrong?

And don't tell me you aren't arguing.

That is the same thing. You are saying peer review should be used to remove any biases so we will not make a mistake and pick the wrong religious belief.

I am saying peer review is ONE TOOL OUT OF MANY that we should use. I never said it is the ONLY tool we should use.

No, I am not going to withdraw my claim. You found a peer reviewed journal, that is all you found! Most journals are peer reviewed so that is nothing new.

It's a peer reviewed journal ABOUT RELIGION. It's literally called, "Critical Research on Religion."

Are you suggesting that a peer reviewed journal about religion is not going to apply peer review to the articles it publishes about religion?

You have found nothing that says that religious beliefs should be subject to peer review by other people in order to remove personal biases and you will never find such a thing anywhere since it is your own idea and nobody else would ever present such a ridiculous idea.

Critical Research on Religion is a peer-reviewed, international journal focusing on the development of a critical theoretical framework and its application to research on religion. It provides a common venue for those engaging in critical analysis in theology and religious studies, as well as for those who critically study religion in the other social sciences and humanities such as philosophy, sociology, anthropology, psychology, history, and literature. This journal is a member of the Committee on Publication Ethics (COPE)
https://journals.sagepub.com/home/crr

Did you even bother reading that?

They literally do peer review on all sorts of religious topics.

As I said, God wants our personal opinion/belief and that includes any biases we might have.
There is nothing wrong with having a bias unless it is unfair and if we have a bias that is unfair it is our job to realize that. It is not someone else's job to point it out.

Then he should welcome my biased view against Bahai.

This only applies to science, NOT to religion. I am sorry you cannot understand why.
I understand science and the purpose of peer review but you do not understand religion and the importance of individual investigation of truth, but you might understand if you could remove your bias and try to understand.

Baha'is believe in what is called independent investigation of truth, which means that one should always investigate the truth for themselves if they want to know the truth. People should never take anyone else's word for what is true.

"The first Baha’i principle is the independent investigation of reality. Not found in any sacred Book of the past, it abolishes the need for clergy and sets us free from imitation and blind adherence to unexamined, dogmatic beliefs. Baha’is believe that no soul should follow ancestral or traditional beliefs without first questioning and examining their own inner landscape. Instead, the first Baha’i principle gives each individual the right and the duty to investigate and decide what they believe on their own."
Independent Investigation of Truth

How to Investigate Things For Yourself—and Not Rely on Hearsay

Science PART 3 IN SERIES: The What Why and How of Independent Investigation

Clearly, the Baha’i teachings ask all people to independently investigate the truth—but many will still be left with the question: How do I actually do robust independent investigation for myself?

One of the most straightforward ways to learn how to investigate reality involves learning the processes of science—which dovetails with the Baha’i principle of the essential harmony of science and religion:

Perhaps the most important gift that science has to offer us is the knowledge of its methods. The scientific method forms an excellent model for investigating many truths. The scientific method involves five basic steps:

• careful observation
• applying rigorous, questioning skepticism to those observations
• formulating hypotheses based on the observations, and on inductive reasoning
• experimental and measurement-based testing of all deductions drawn from the hypotheses
• and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings.

https://bahaiteachings.org/how-to-investigate-things-for-yourself-not-rely-on-hearsay
IN SERIES: The What Why and How of Independent Investigation

(Continued on next post)

As I said, it applies to ALL attempts to find the truth.

You only claim it doesn't apply to religion because you know religion is unfalsifiable, and as such, there is no justification to believe in it.

Either that, or you admit that religious belief is not interested in the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I will give you the top five:
Number one. The belief that you have a mandate from God.
Number two: The conviction that your beliefs are necessarily correct and moral.
Number three: A moral code that is primary.
Number four: The belief that your religion should have a say in government.
Number five: The belief that your religion is destined to save the world.

The Baha'i Faith has 1-3 but does not have the following beliefs:

Number four: The belief that your religion should have a say in government.
Number five: The belief that your religion is destined to save the world.

 

[Tiberius]

You are not being logical at all.
There is no hypocrisy because Baha'u'llah is not 'other people', He was a Messenger of God.
What He wrote is not His opinion, it is based upon His Revelation from God. If you do not read what He wrote how can you ever know anything about His claim and teachings?

Ah yes, create an exception for him by assuming that he is the very thing you want to prove he is! It'sd stunning that you are incapable of seeing the logical fallacy.

No, that is NOT what I am saying. What I am saying is that we should not base our beliefs upon other people's opinions. People should all base their beliefs upon their own opinions.

When I am studying a particular thing, why should I ever ignore anything of worth related to that thing?

We will never discover the truth about Baha'u'llah if we listen to what other people think about Baha'u'llah. Rather we need to look at the words and deeds of Baha'u'llah by ourselves and come to our own conclusion regarding what they mean (was He a Messenger of God or not?) In other words, we should never base our conclusions on other people's opinions. That is why peer review is the worst thing we could ever do.

You tell us we should ignore what other people think about him, yet you think that we should listen to what YOU think about him. Again with the hypocrisy. Why don't you ever say, "I'm not going to tell you about Mr B, because you shouldn't listen to what I have to say about him. Instead, read his works for yourself and make your own dicisions."

If my opinions are worthless, does that mean we are done here?

well, you certainly don';t have to reply to me. But I'll certainly continue to reply to your posts whenever I see you using logical fallacies and poor reasoning skills.

That is a straw man. I never said that so that no one else could be better qualified than me to make a determination about the validity of a religion.. I only ever said that what we decide to believe should be determined by each one of us individually, our beliefs should not be determined by someone else.

Sorry, I didn't mean "you" referring to YOU specifically. I meant "you" as in the person who was making the decision. I was saying that if person A is deciding which religion to follow, it would be very arrogant of them to assume that they are the best qualified person to determine which religion is the valid one.

Sorry, I should have been more careful with my phrasing.

That is a good point. You should not go by anything I say about Baha'u'llah. You should make your own determinations. I have said that on this forum myriad times.

So then why are you here talking about it if your own messenger says we should ignore what you say?

God does want that, but God does not want us to get our views from other people.

So God wants us to get as close to the accurate view as possible, yet he does not want us to do something that will help us accomplish that?

All I said was it could have consequences. Everything we do has consequences. I did not say what those consequences would be because only God knows that.

Or if there are any consequences at all. Can you cite a passage from Mr B's work that talks of these consequences? Tell us how you know there will be consequences?

Because it really sounds like the veiled threat I've seen from Christians so often: "You better believe or you'll go to Hell."

I said: I keep telling you what I just said, and you never seem to understand it. God does not want the test results of other people; God wants us to take the test and come up with our own answers.

You said: That God wants that is your subjective opinion. Why should I care what you claim God wants us to do when I don't even think God exists?

I said: What God wants is according to my belief, not according to my subjective opinion.
This entire discussion is moot if you do not care what God would want if God existed.

What I meant is that my belief about what God wants (God wants us to take the test and come up with our own answers) comes from Baha'u'llah, it is not my personal opinion.

If your belief is a result of your own personal investigation without regards for anything anyone else has said about it, how is it anything OTHER than your personal opinion?

I said: This entire discussion is moot if you do not care what God would want if God existed.

Do you mean why do I keep making arguments for what God wants?

Yeah.

I make arguments for what God wants because I am a believer who believes I know what God wants.

God can speak for himself. It is not your place to act as a messenger for God. In any case, by your own admission, I should be ignoring you.

The question you should ask yourself is why you keep making arguments for how we should come to a belief in God if you do not care what God would want if God existed.

Because I am interested in nothing but the TRUTH, whatever it may be. I do not care if God exists or not. If there is good evidence he exists, then I will believe. If there is no good evidence he exists, I will not believe.

Another straw man. I never presented my belief as a fact and many many times I have said a religious belief is not a fact because it can never be proven true.

Would you give up this weak tiresome argument hiding behind the, "I never claimed anything, I just said what I believe." If you say you KNOW something is true, then it's a claim.

If you had any logical reasoning abilities you would know that a belief and a fact are mutually exclusive.

So if it's a belief, it can't be a fact?

Nice, you've just proven that your own belief can not be factual!

I said : I believe that that what Baha'u'llah did in toto is explained by Him being a Messenger of God and I do not believe a non-Messenger could ever do what He did.
The answer is that there is nothing in the objective facts that you are going to believe could only have happened if he was divinely inspired.

So, in other words, you are saying, "An average person could have done anything that Mr B did, but I also think that there are things that Mr B did that an average person could NOT have done."

I never claimed to know that my belief is true, I only ever said that I believe it is true.

Yes you have. You've said many times, "I know my belief is true," or words to that effect. I can't find the exact posts right now because I'm on my tablet, not my computer, but I'll be happy to provide a list of instances where you have claimed to know.

I know with certainty because I got that certainty from God.

Oh look, here you are, claiming to know. I didn't need to look very far, did I?

You really have no logical abilities, that is becoming more and more obvious as time goes on.

Given your lack of logical abilities, it's no wojnder you can't recognise logic in others.

A person saying something different from what they said before because they had a new and different thought is not a contradiction. You see, some of us can have new thoughts and new ideas rather than repeating the same old mantra over and over and over again. Some of us can also admit we might have been wrong and change our position. Obviously you can't. You are above admitting you might have been wrong.

Except you aren't getting a new point of view. You are merely flip-flopping between two different positions depending on which is convenient to you at the time. You even do it within a single post.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am. You've refused to believe that peer review had any benefit at all until very recently. You stated many times that peer review actually introduced MORE bias, which is completely untrue.

No, I always knew the benefit of peer review for hat is intended to be used for but it was NEVER intended to be used for deciding which religion is true.

It should be a part of ANY process that seeks to find the truth.

No, it should NEVER be used to seek the truth about God or religion. It is everyone's personal responsibility to investigate a religion and decide what to believe for themselves.

Yeah, it's a claim. Your constant hiding behind that weak defense is growing tiresome.

It is a statement of certitude regarding my belief. I claim nothing.

There are quite a few people in this thread that agree with me. My peers have reviewed my posts and are in agreement. See how good peer review is?

There are quite a few Baha'is on this forum that agree with me. My peers have reviewed my posts and are in agreement. However they already came to a belief in the Baha'i Faith all by themselves, they did not need to rely upon other people to review their work.

It matters because people come in here and start spouting their religious beliefs as true and that everyone else's beliefs are false.

Wake up and smell the coffee.That is what people do on a religious forum.

Please, go right ahead. I will show you how anything you presented as justification is nothing more that, "Nope, 'fraid not!"

I am not going to repeat myself again. Everything I say is fraid not with you because you think you know everything and you can never be wrong.

because you just won't let it go. You keep respondiong with the same flawed arguments.

And are you saying you are wrong?

And don't tell me you aren't arguing.

I get my beliefs about how we should investigate a religion from Baha'u'llah who is infallible so He cannot be wrong.
By contrast all your beliefs about using peer review before selecting a religion come straight from your own ego.

I am saying peer review is ONE TOOL OUT OF MANY that we should use. I never said it is the ONLY tool we should use.

And I am saying peer review is ONE TOOL that we should NEVER use and I explained why.

It's a peer reviewed journal ABOUT RELIGION. It's literally called, "Critical Research on Religion."

Are you suggesting that a peer reviewed journal about religion is not going to apply peer review to the articles it publishes about religion?

Of course it applies peer review to the articles it publishes, but there is no article that says that our personal beliefs should be subject to peer review before we select them.

Did you even bother reading that?

They literally do peer review on all sorts of religious topics.

I have no problem with reading what other people say on religious topics. That is called research.

Then he should welcome my biased view against Bahai.

God has no problem with your biased view about Baha'i if that is the view you came to after doing your independent investigation. You have free will to choose and God wants you to choose freely.

As I said, it applies to ALL attempts to find the truth.

You only claim it doesn't apply to religion because you know religion is unfalsifiable, and as such, there is no justification to believe in it.

Either that, or you admit that religious belief is not interested in the truth.

I never said that the scientific method does not apply to attempts to find the truth about a religion, but I never thought about how it can be used until I read this article.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I am studying a particular thing, why should I ever ignore anything of worth related to that thing?

I never said you should.

You tell us we should ignore what other people think about him, yet you think that we should listen to what YOU think about him. Again with the hypocrisy. Why don't you ever say, "I'm not going to tell you about Mr B, because you shouldn't listen to what I have to say about him. Instead, read his works for yourself and make your own decisions."

When did I ever say I think that anyone should listen to what I think about Baha'u'llah? -- NEVER.
If you ask my opinion I will give it but I don't expect anyone to believe what I say.

I am telling you to do your own research and think for yourself and instead of listening to other people's opinions, and that includes any opinions I might have.

I have told you time and again that you have to do your own investigation including reading what He wrote. That is part of the evidence I have posted on this forum over and over again.

Sorry, I didn't mean "you" referring to YOU specifically. I meant "you" as in the person who was making the decision. I was saying that if person A is deciding which religion to follow, it would be very arrogant of them to assume that they are the best qualified person to determine which religion is the valid one.

Sorry, I should have been more careful with my phrasing.

Why would that be arrogant?
So who would be more qualified and why would they be more qualified?

So then why are you here talking about it if your own messenger says we should ignore what you say?

I did not say you should ignore what I say. I said you should make your own determinations. I have said that on this forum myriad times.

So God wants us to get as close to the accurate view as possible, yet he does not want us to do something that will help us accomplish that?

God does want us to do what will accomplish that. It is called independent investigation of truth.

Or if there are any consequences at all. Can you cite a passage from Mr B's work that talks of these consequences? Tell us how you know there will be consequences?

Because it really sounds like the veiled threat I've seen from Christians so often: "You better believe or you'll go to Hell."

I cannot cite al the passages that say that, but here is one:

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

The punishment is not getting the reward.

If your belief is a result of your own personal investigation without regards for anything anyone else has said about it, how is it anything OTHER than your personal opinion?

The belief I came to (as a result of my own personal investigation without regards for anything anyone else has said about it) is my personal opinion.

My belief about what God wants (God wants us to take the test and come up with our own answers) comes from Baha'u'llah, it is not my personal opinion.

God can speak for himself. It is not your place to act as a messenger for God. In any case, by your own admission, I should be ignoring you.

God has spoken - through Baha'u'llah. I only pass along what Baha'u'llah wrote, so I am kind of like a messenger for the Messenger, a go-between. It would be better if you read it for yourself, but I don't think you will do that.

Because I am interested in nothing but the TRUTH, whatever it may be. I do not care if God exists or not. If there is good evidence he exists, then I will believe. If there is no good evidence he exists, I will not believe.

I tell you what I believe is the Truth and what the good evidence is, that is all I can do, but if you reject it that is not my responsibility.

Would you give up this weak tiresome argument hiding behind the, "I never claimed anything, I just said what I believe." If you say you KNOW something is true, then it's a claim.

If I say I KNOW my belief is true, then it's a statement of faith, not a claim.

So if it's a belief, it can't be a fact?

Nice, you've just proven that your own belief can not be factual!

A belief is not a fact, that is an oxymoron. God is not a fact because God can never be proven to exist. There are facts about my religion but the religion cannot be proven to be true as a fact because nobody can prove that God spoke to Baha'u'llah - as a fact.

Many many times I have said a religious belief is not a fact because it can never be proven true, but that does not mean it isn't true because proof is not what makes anything true.

So, in other words, you are saying, "An average person could have done anything that Mr B did, but I also think that there are things that Mr B did that an average person could NOT have done."

That is what I am saying, and the same holds true for all the Messengers of God.

Yes you have. You've said many times, "I know my belief is true," or words to that effect. I can't find the exact posts right now because I'm on my tablet, not my computer, but I'll be happy to provide a list of instances where you have claimed to know.

You are right, I have said that I know, but that is not a claim, it is a statement of certitude. I cannot claim to know what I cannot prove to others.

Oh look, here you are, claiming to know. I didn't need to look very far, did I?

"I know with certainty because I got that certainty from God."
That is not a claim, it is a statement of faith, the kind of faith that Jesus said can move mountains, remember?.

Except you aren't getting a new point of view. You are merely flip-flopping between two different positions depending on which is convenient to you at the time. You even do it within a single post.

I do flip-flop but it is not a matter of convenience since I have no motive to win any arguments. That is just how my mind works and you are not the first to point it out. I drive my husband crazy because he cannot follow what I am saying!

 

[samtonga43]

You are not being logical at all.There is no hypocrisy because Baha'u'llah is not 'other people', He was a Messenger of God.

He claimed to be God.

Baha’u’llah during his lifetime made several claims for himself. Here are some of them. This is one facet which the Baha’is do not reveal for their followers.

Baha’u’llah mentions in Aqdas, page 43, “There is no God but I the Honored, the Wise.”

He again writes in Aqdas, page 144 “Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity.”

In Aqdas, page 8, Baha’u’llah says, “We have sent down all the Messengers and we have revealed all the Books.”

In Istaqaaraat, page 34, Baha’u’llah writes, “The Master of Eternity lies in prison” (referring to his imprisonment and confinement).

In his Tablets, Page 217, Baha’u’llah writes, “All, save me are created from my command.”

In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, Baha’u’llah writes, “All praise is for you O Baha’u’llah, the Creator of existence.”

In the same book, page 190, he says, “Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Baha’u’llah.

Again in Al-Mubeen, page 297, Baha’u’llah again refers to himself as, “You Most Beneficent Lord, Baha’u’llah”,

In his Tajalliyaat (Tajalli number 4), page 5, Baha’u’llah decrees, “Most surely I am Allah. There is no God save me. I am the Lord of everything. The O my creatures, you worship me alone.”

***

Now here is an important point to note. Baha’is do not present the belief of Divinity of Baha’u’llah before everyone. It is only revealed to those who are firm in the Baha’i faith. Most Baha’is till date remain ignorant of these claims. Even the Baha’i preachers refuse to openly acknowledge that Baha’u’llah made claims of divinity.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-major-criticisms-about-the-Bahai-faith

 

[samtonga43]

I do flip-flop but it is not a matter of convenience since I have no motive to win any arguments. That is just how my mind works and you are not the first to point it out. I drive my husband crazy because he cannot follow what I am saying!

Yes, you do contradict yourself a lot. You can't seem to follow what you have said. You continually disagree with another poster's interpretation of what you have said. "No, that's not what I meant", you say, and then you proceed to say something quite different to whatever you said in the first place.

You have said recently that
a) You never claimed to know that your belief is true,
and
b) You know with certainty because I got that certainty from God.

(Your husband has my sympathy).

 

[KWED]

Number four: The belief that your religion should have a say in government.

So you don't think the world should be run by a government implementing Baha'i principles?
So, what principles do you think are necessary for good government?

Number five: The belief that your religion is destined to save the world.

Then what is the point in it?

 

[KWED]

What I am saying is that we should not base our beliefs upon other people's opinions. People should all base their beliefs upon their own opinions.

So why do you keep endlessly quoting other people's opinions to justify your beliefs?

 

[Sheldon]

I will give you the top five:
Number one. The belief that you have a mandate from God.
Number two: The conviction that your beliefs are necessarily correct and moral.
Number three: A moral code that is primary.
Number four: The belief that your religion should have a say in government.
Number five: The belief that your religion is destined to save the world.

Number six; It offends reason with her relentless use of irrational claims using known logical fallacies, including the ludicrous claim that her claims are not claims.

 

[ppp]

Number six; It offends reason with her relentless use of irrational claims using known logical fallacies, including the ludicrous claim that her claims are not claims.

Ah yes. Number six: adherents will say whatever achieves short term or immediate gratification, with little regard for ramifications or consequence.

 

[Trailblazer]

He claimed to be God.

Baha’u’llah during his lifetime made several claims for himself. Here are some of them. This is one facet which the Baha’is do not reveal for their followers.

Baha’u’llah mentions in Aqdas, page 43, “There is no God but I the Honored, the Wise.”

He again writes in Aqdas, page 144 “Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity.”

In Aqdas, page 8, Baha’u’llah says, “We have sent down all the Messengers and we have revealed all the Books.”

In Istaqaaraat, page 34, Baha’u’llah writes, “The Master of Eternity lies in prison” (referring to his imprisonment and confinement).

In his Tablets, Page 217, Baha’u’llah writes, “All, save me are created from my command.”

In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, Baha’u’llah writes, “All praise is for you O Baha’u’llah, the Creator of existence.”

In the same book, page 190, he says, “Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Baha’u’llah.

Again in Al-Mubeen, page 297, Baha’u’llah again refers to himself as, “You Most Beneficent Lord, Baha’u’llah”,

In his Tajalliyaat (Tajalli number 4), page 5, Baha’u’llah decrees, “Most surely I am Allah. There is no God save me. I am the Lord of everything. The O my creatures, you worship me alone.”

***

Now here is an important point to note. Baha’is do not present the belief of Divinity of Baha’u’llah before everyone. It is only revealed to those who are firm in the Baha’i faith. Most Baha’is till date remain ignorant of these claims. Even the Baha’i preachers refuse to openly acknowledge that Baha’u’llah made claims of divinity.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-major-criticisms-about-the-Bahai-faith

Please note the link "What-are-the-major-criticisms-about-the-Bahai-faith."

If you had any logical abilities you would know that this is calumniation.

Some of those are quotes ripped out of context and some are not even in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, they are mistranslations, but they were posted hoping gullible people like you would believe them just because they are on the internet. I proved this the last time someone posted this garbage but I don't have time to do it again. It is gross calumny.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God, He disclaimed being God many times.

The Truth About the Baha'i Faith: A Shocking Expose'
These pathetic attempts at calumny would not escape anyone who had any logical abilities.

Quoted out of context, look at how Baha’u’llah’s Writings appear:

“Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.”

It makes it look as if Baha’u’llah is claiming to be God, but you need to read the entire passage in context (see below). Him does not refer to Baha’u’llah; it refers to God. “Through Him (the Manifestation of God, Baha’u’llah) I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him (God), the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.

Below is the entire passage with who Baha'u'llah was referring to (in parenthesis, my additions).

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice (God’s Voice) is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men (in a Manifestation of God) , and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation (the Manifestation of God). Through Him (the Manifestation of God) I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him (God), the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men (God) can never be known except through His Manifestation (the Manifestation of God), and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person (the Person of the Manifestation of God).”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

Baha’u’llah never claimed to be God, Baha’u’llah disclaimed being God.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors. I and My kindred are at your mercy. Do ye as ye please, and be not of them that hesitate, that I might return to God My Lord, and reach the place where I can no longer behold your faces. This, indeed, is My dearest wish, My most ardent desire. Of My state God is, verily, sufficiently informed, observant.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, you do contradict yourself a lot.

Flip-flopping is not contradicting. I just think tangentially.

I see that as usual you could not pass up an opportunity to criticize me again, unaware that this says more about you that it says about anything I actually did.

“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)

“O ye Cohorts of God! Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy.”
Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, p. 45

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[Trailblazer]

So you don't think the world should be run by a government implementing Baha'i principles?
So, what principles do you think are necessary for good government?

I do think the world should be run by a government implementing Baha'i principles but Baha'is do not have a say in the government because we do not get involved in politics.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”

—Shoghi Effendi

The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii

Then what is the point in it?

You have a point. Maybe Number five applies after all.
Number five: The belief that your religion is destined to save the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why do you keep endlessly quoting other people's opinions to justify your beliefs?

Baha'u'llah is not 'other people.' He was a Manifestation of God.

A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man. Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory.

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah yes. Number six: adherents will say whatever achieves short term or immediate gratification, with little regard for ramifications or consequence.

No, it is for the long term good of the whole world.

 

[ppp]

Ah yes. Number six: adherents will say whatever achieves short term or immediate gratification, with little regard for ramifications or consequence.

No, it is for the long term good of the whole world.

I don't know what the "No" is for. You are not denying the truth of my claim. And I don't care why you think you do it. If someone goes around grabbing people's crotches because they honestly think it is for the long term good of the whole world, they still deserve all of the opprobrium that they receive.