Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

Such a strange question to ask atheists.

It is strange, but since they kept saying "that's not evidence" I wanted to know what they think would be evidence of God's existence.

 

[Tiberius]

I did not you should ignore anything of worth related to that religion. I said we should not make a final decision as to what to believe according to other people’s opinions.

You said, "God does not want us to listen to other peoples' opinions."

You never said anything to limit this advice to forming our opinions. You didn't say, "God does not want us to listen to other peoples' opinions when we decide which religion we are going to follow, but while doing our research it's totally fine."

I do not assume that at all. I have no idea if you have come to a conclusion or what conclusion you came to or unless you tell me.

*Points at religion indicator that says ATHEIST.*

I have been studying the Baha’i Faith for over 51 years. Do you think it would be very arrogant of you to decide that you were better qualified to judge the validity of the religion as an accurate representation of reality than me?

"I've been driving this car for over 51 years, despite never having driven or looked at any other car. Do you think it would be arrogant of you to decide that you were better to judge whether a different car could be better than I would be?"

In short, I'll take my 20 years of looking at many different religion over your half century or so of echo chamber.

I did not think I was more qualified to judge the Baha’i Faith when I was researching the religion and that is why I read books written by Baha’is who had already done a lot of research. For example, this is the first book that I read:

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

Fully downloadable version:
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

Yeah...

If someone tells you something is true, and then you go and read only sources that tell you that thing is true, that's not doing your research.

A flat earther who goes to a flat earth website and reads flat earther conspiracy theories has done just as much research as you. That is to say, NONE.

These opinions should not be excluded. Reading what learned Baha’is have written is part of our independent investigation of truth. And along those lines, if you want to know how Baha’u’llah has fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ you should read Thief in the Night by William Sears which was written by a learned Baha’i. He researched what Baha’u’llah did to fulfil those prophecies for seven years and he even went to the holy land to verify the places that he was writing about.

That's right! Don't look at the opinions of those who say Baha'i is wrong. But DO look at the opinions of the people who say Bahai is correct! That's the only way to get a real unbiased viewpoint!

It is vague because it was not intended to be an explanation as to what happens to people who get it wrong. There is nothing specifically written about nonbelievers as all Baha’u’llah wrote was what a true believer can expect as a reward and it is still quite vague because as Baha’u’llah wrote it is indescribable and the knowledge of the afterlife is with God alone.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

So then it means whatever the person wants it to mean, and as such it is absolutely useless as a statement about reality.

My belief about what God wants is not my personal opinion. My belief about what God wants is based upon what Baha’u’llah wrote, since I believe that Baha’u’llah spoke for God.

And since it is based on YOUR belief that Mr B spoke for God, it is still ultimately based on your belief and as such is an opinion.

That comment was unwarranted, especially given all the hours I have spent answering your posts. I just provided accurate information about the Baha’i Faith and I am in no NO WAY responsible for what you have concluded.

I'm sorry, are you trying to say you are better qualified than me to tell me what influences my opinion?

Your arguments (and don't start with the "They're not arguments!" nonsense again, no one buys that for a second) have been constantly filled with logical fallacies, poor logic, and you can't even keep them straight. You have also shown that Bahais, just like any other religion, pick and choose what they want to believe based on whether they want to believe it or not. Yet they act like they are the only ones who got it right - just the same as any other religion.

I am not responsible for convincing you that the Baha’i Faith is true, it is your responsibility to convince yourself if you want to know. I can lead a horse to water but I cannot make it drink.

I'm not asking you to convince me.

I'm asking you to give any support for your arguments that is not based on logical fallacies or poor reasoning.

We have already covered this. There are facts about the Baha’i Faith that can be verified but no religious belief can ever be proven to be true as a fact, since it is not verifiable that God ever spoke to anyone!

Then why should anyone believe it?

I hope you mean if there is no evidence, there is no reason we should believe it to be true. If so, I agree with that.

I'll accept that. And again, I ask, if this is the case, why should anyone believe it?

Sorry, that was my mistake. I did not catch that error. I should have said: "An average person could have done some things that Baha’u’llah did, but I also think that there are things that Baha’u’llah did that an average person could NOT have done."

Okay then. Please tell me something that Mr B did that an average person could NOT do.

I said it is the kind of faith that Jesus said can move mountains. Faith can be tested and if we fail the test we lose our faith. I have gone to hell and back to attain to this kind of faith. Faith does not come easy, it is always tested.

"Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 "
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

I don't see how this answers my question.

You can choose to believe it or not but only I know if I have certainty.

being certain about something means nothing. You can be certain about something and still be completely wrong.

Maybe that is what you want to assume but it is illogical became it is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions. If I was unable to flip-flop from one thought to another I could never write all these long detailed posts and know exactly where to find all the appropriate passages in two seconds flat.

Please explain how you would be unable to write long detailed posts or knowing where to find a particular passage if you could not flip flop.

 

[samtonga43]

I guess that is why my fellow Baha'is always give me Likes and Winners for my posts and some even start Conversations with me just to tell me how well I am doing in teaching the Faith.

Teaching the faith? Is this what you think you're doing?

 

[Trailblazer]

Hooray! I know just as much about Catholicism as the Pope does!

That does not fly because I was not talking about a religion, I was talking about God.
Let's say that you are a seeker with no religion and you know nothing about God.
I said: "there is no reason why our peers would know any more than we know about God."

There is no reason to think that the Pope knows more about God than you do, unless you are a Catholic.
Likewise, there is no reason to think that the UHJ knows more about God than you do, unless you are a Baha'i.

It helps to show what is objectively true by eliminating things that are objectively false.

That won't work for religious beliefs since they can never be proven true or false.

And yet all too often they decide on whether the science is valid or not by whether it agrees with what they want to believe or not.

That's true, and the same applies to religion.

By your own admission, you didn't even look at other religious beliefs. Hardly very good research!

It's like a flat earther looking at a single flat earth website and then claiming he's done his research.

We have already beaten this to death. Independent investigation of truth does not require doing research on all the religions. I picked the religion I was interested in researching and I researched it thoroughly.

Your analogy fails because I did not look at a single website.

Why would it MATTER what I did? The only thing that matters is whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. How much research I did before I became a Baha'i has NO BEARING upon whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. There is no logical connection.

All Baha'is came to be Baha'is in their own ways. Some looked at many other religions, some did not. I know a Baha'i who was formerly Catholic who studied all the religions and the Baha'i Faith for six years before he became a Baha'i. I know another Baha'i from a Christian background who only read one page of Gleanings and he became a Baha'i the next day. He has been a Baha'i for over 60 years. Comparing is unnecessary when one recognizes the truth straightaway.

Whaddaya mean "INSTEAD"? I never said that. I said we should use ALL available sources.

What I meant by 'instead' is that we should not base our opinion of the Baha'i Faith on one Baha’i who has done decades of research and 'believe' what he determined to be true, which was just his personal opinion. We need to look at all available sources of 'accurate information' about Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith.

Again, that is very vague.

If the villain in a James Bond movie turns to one of his henchmen who failed him and says, "For your failure, you shall receive none other than your own punishment,” I guarantee that henchman is going to be afraid the villain is going to kill him. He's not going to be thinking, "Oh, I've been fired." Unless it's out of a cannon. Into the sun.

It is not my fault if God is vague about the afterlife, but Baha'u'llah explained why God is vague.
It is because if we were told the mysteries of the afterlife some of us would wish to die immediately in our longing to get there while others would be so fearful and sorrowful they would wish they had never been born. I think you are smart enough to do the math.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

 

[Trailblazer]

Teaching the faith? Is this what you think you're doing?

That is not what I 'think' I am doing, that is what I am doing.
When a Baha'i imparts information about the Baha'i Faith that is called teaching the Faith.

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings, p. 278

 

[samtonga43]

That is not what I 'think' I am doing, that is what I am doing.
When a Baha'i imparts information about the Baha'i Faith that is called teaching the Faith.

This is why you spend all these hours, days, weeks, years posting on message boards -- to teach others about your belief that God spoke to MrB.?

 

[Trailblazer]

This is why you spend all these hours, days, weeks, years posting on message boards -- to teach others about your belief that God spoke to MrB.?

No, that is not the only reason I post on forums, that is just one reason.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said, "God does not want us to listen to other peoples' opinions."

You never said anything to limit this advice to forming our opinions. You didn't say, "God does not want us to listen to other peoples' opinions when we decide which religion we are going to follow, but while doing our research it's totally fine."

Before we decide if the Baha'i Faith is true FIRST we need to read sources that impart accurate information about the Baha'i Faith and what it is all about. These are not other people's opinions about the Baha'i Faith, these are facts. We want to form our own opinion. We can read books written by Baha'is in order to help form our own opinion about the Baha'i Faith but first we need to know the objective facts. We should also read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha to help form our opinion.

"I've been driving this car for over 51 years, despite never having driven or looked at any other car. Do you think it would be arrogant of you to decide that you were better to judge whether a different car could be better than I would be?"

Why are you bringing that up?
We were not talking about different religions, we were talking about said religion, so your analogy does not fly.

You are the one who said: "If I was considering a religion to follow, it would be very arrogant of me to decide that I was better qualified to judge the validity of said religion as an accurate representation of reality than someone who had been studying that religion for 40 years."

In short, I'll take my 20 years of looking at many different religion over your half century or so of echo chamber.

And where has that 20 years of looking gotten you?
Good luck with all those religions because there is only one religion that 'guarantees' you will get to heaven, if you even care. Of course this is only my belief/personal opinion, so you don't have to believe me. I am just imparting accurate information from the authoritative Writings of the Baha'i Faith.

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

I would not count on God's mercy if I were you, not after all the opportunities you have been given to believe in Baha'u'llah. To get the guarantee, you need both faith in Baha’u’llah and good deeds. Faith in all those other religions you looked out won't get you through the pearly gates.

Yeah...

If someone tells you something is true, and then you go and read only sources that tell you that thing is true, that's not doing your research.

A flat earther who goes to a flat earth website and reads flat earther conspiracy theories has done just as much research as you. That is to say, NONE.

That is not what I did. I did not read sources that told me that the Baha'i Faith is true. I read all the accurate information about the Baha'i Faith, the objective facts.

You have no idea how much research I have done and it is arrogant to assume you know.

Why do you keep talking about what I did? You are only responsible for yourself and what you do. What I did has NO BEARING upon whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. Why waste time talking about me? If you were a true seeker you would do your research and stop talking about what I did.

That's right! Don't look at the opinions of those who say Baha'i is wrong. But DO look at the opinions of the people who say Bahai is correct! That's the only way to get a real unbiased viewpoint!

I never said not to look at the opinions of people who say Baha'i is wrong. You can look at any opinions you want to look at. All I ever said is not to rely upon other people's opinions because you alone are accountable to God on judgment day.

"I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

What is wrong with you, that you cannot look at the objective facts and form an opinion of your own? Why do you have to rely upon other people's opinions? Are you that insecure, that afraid of making a mistake?

So then it means whatever the person wants it to mean, and as such it is absolutely useless as a statement about reality.

It means exactly what it says: “Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life."

And since it is based on YOUR belief that Mr B spoke for God, it is still ultimately based on your belief and as such is an opinion.

That's right.

I'm sorry, are you trying to say you are better qualified than me to tell me what influences my opinion?

You said: "You've certainly done a good job of turning me away from the Bahai faith."

I did not turn you away, you turned away. You cannot blame me for that. All I do is impart accurate information about the Baha'i Faith and quote what Baha'u'llah wrote. If you are turned away by that it is not because of me. You just want to blame me for what you concluded but that won't work.

You cannot blame another student in the class because you got the answers wrong on the exam. That won't fly with the teacher and it will not fly with God on judgment day. If Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God you are accountable to God for recognizing Him. That is what is hanging in the balance and it is your own decision.

Then why should anyone believe it?

I never said anyone should believe it. We can choose to believe it or not. That is what free will is for.

I'll accept that. And again, I ask, if this is the case, why should anyone believe it?

Again, nobody should believe it unless they choose to believe it for their own reasons.
I believe it because of the evidence.

Okay then. Please tell me something that Mr B did that an average person could NOT do.

The average person could not do miracles. You can read about the miracles but I cannot prove that Baha'u'llah did miracles, so what good is that to you?

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

I don't see how this answers my question.

You said: "You mean that thing that you said shouldn't be tested because it wasn't meant literally?"
The answer is yes, that is what I meant.

being certain about something means nothing. You can be certain about something and still be completely wrong.

I did not say it means anything, I only said I am certain.

 

[Tiberius]

Teaching the faith? Is this what you think you're doing?

Can't be. She's said that we shouldn't listen to her opinion. What kind of teacher says, "You shouldn't listen to me"?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can't be. She's said that we shouldn't listen to her opinion. What kind of teacher says, "You shouldn't listen to me"?

The objective facts of the Baha'i Faith and the Writings of Baha'u'llah are not my personal opinion.

 

[Tiberius]

That does not fly because I was not talking about a religion, I was talking about God.
Let's say that you are a seeker with no religion and you know nothing about God.
I said: "there is no reason why our peers would know any more than we know about God."

There is no reason to think that the Pope knows more about God than you do, unless you are a Catholic.
Likewise, there is no reason to think that the UHJ knows more about God than you do, unless you are a Baha'i.

Then that's an argument AGAINST me becoming a Bahai, since right now I have no reason to think that the UHJ knows more about God than me.

That won't work for religious beliefs since they can never be proven true or false.

Just like fairytales!

That's true, and the same applies to religion.

But you've never reached any religious belief based on this kind of reasoning, have you?

We have already beaten this to death. Independent investigation of truth does not require doing research on all the religions. I picked the religion I was interested in researching and I researched it thoroughly.

Pick what you want to believe and research it until you believe it.

That's hardly a good way to find TRUTH.

Your analogy fails because I did not look at a single website.

Irrelevant. You can take it to mean source.

Why would it MATTER what I did? The only thing that matters is whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. How much research I did before I became a Baha'i has NO BEARING upon whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. There is no logical connection.

In this we are agreed. You can not research your way into a religious belief, since religious beliefs are not rational.

All Baha'is came to be Baha'is in their own ways. Some looked at many other religions, some did not. I know a Baha'i who was formerly Catholic who studied all the religions and the Baha'i Faith for six years before he became a Baha'i. I know another Baha'i from a Christian background who only read one page of Gleanings and he became a Baha'i the next day. He has been a Baha'i for over 60 years. Comparing is unnecessary when one recognizes the truth straightaway.

Sounds to me that different people have different standards for what counts as convincing evidence.

What I meant by 'instead' is that we should not base our opinion of the Baha'i Faith on one Baha’i who has done decades of research and 'believe' what he determined to be true, which was just his personal opinion. We need to look at all available sources of 'accurate information' about Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith.

Maybe you should just say what you mean clearly the first time.

It is not my fault if God is vague about the afterlife, but Baha'u'llah explained why God is vague.
It is because if we were told the mysteries of the afterlife some of us would wish to die immediately in our longing to get there while others would be so fearful and sorrowful they would wish they had never been born. I think you are smart enough to do the math.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

That's hilarious. I've seen Star Trek fans do the same sort of thing to come up with reasons for inconsistencies in Star Trek too.

 

[Tiberius]

Before we decide if the Baha'i Faith is true FIRST we need to read sources that impart accurate information about the Baha'i Faith and what it is all about. These are not other people's opinions about the Baha'i Faith, these are facts. We want to form our own opinion. We can read books written by Baha'is in order to help form our own opinion about the Baha'i Faith but first we need to know the objective facts. We should also read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha to help form our opinion.

Lemme guess, if a source says that Bahai is false, you're gonna say it's not an accurate source, right?

Why are you bringing that up?
We were not talking about different religions, we were talking about said religion, so your analogy does not fly.

You are the one who said: "If I was considering a religion to follow, it would be very arrogant of me to decide that I was better qualified to judge the validity of said religion as an accurate representation of reality than someone who had been studying that religion for 40 years."

And that person is not qualified to say that their car is the best car, are they?

And where has that 20 years of looking gotten you?

It's gotten me the conclusion that they are all garbage.

Good luck with all those religions because there is only one religion that 'guarantees' you will get to heaven, if you even care. Of course this is only my belief/personal opinion, so you don't have to believe me. I am just imparting accurate information from the authoritative Writings of the Baha'i Faith.

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

I would not count on God's mercy if I were you, not after all the opportunities you have been given to believe in Baha'u'llah. To get the guarantee, you need both faith in Baha’u’llah and good deeds. Faith in all those other religions you looked out won't get you through the pearly gates.

Hilarious.

Do you have any idea how many religions say, "He have to be a good person AND believe in our religion if you want to get into Heaven"? Just about ALL of them! Once again, Bahai is just a rehash of what came before. Nothing special at all.

That is not what I did. I did not read sources that told me that the Baha'i Faith is true. I read all the accurate information about the Baha'i Faith, the objective facts.

You have no idea how much research I have done and it is arrogant to assume you know.

Why do you keep talking about what I did? You are only responsible for yourself and what you do. What I did has NO BEARING upon whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. Why waste time talking about me? If you were a true seeker you would do your research and stop talking about what I did.

So you gave equal weighting to researching sources that showed why the Bahai claims were false, did you? What were these sources?

I never said not to look at the opinions of people who say Baha'i is wrong. You can look at any opinions you want to look at. All I ever said is not to rely upon other people's opinions because you alone are accountable to God on judgment day.

"I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

What is wrong with you, that you cannot look at the objective facts and form an opinion of your own? Why do you have to rely upon other people's opinions? Are you that insecure, that afraid of making a mistake?

By your own admission, the objective evidence about Bahai is NOT SUFFICIENT to justify the conclusion that God spoke to Mr B.

That's right.

And here you go again, flip flopping as you are in the habit of doing...

TB: My belief about what God wants (God wants us to take the test and come up with our own answers) comes from Baha'u'llah, it is not my personal opinion.

Tibs: Since your belief about what God wants is based on your belief about God, which you admit is just an opinion, it would seem that your belief about what God wants is indeed your opinion.

TB: My belief about what God wants is not my personal opinion. My belief about what God wants is based upon what Baha’u’llah wrote, since I believe that Baha’u’llah spoke for God.

Tibs: And since it is based on YOUR belief that Mr B spoke for God, it is still ultimately based on your belief and as such is an opinion.

TB: That's right.

So you went from insisting that your belief about what God wants is NOT an opinion to agreeing that it IS an opinion.

So tell me, once and for all, is your belief about what God wants an opinion or not an opinion?

You said: "You've certainly done a good job of turning me away from the Bahai faith."

I did not turn you away, you turned away. You cannot blame me for that. All I do is impart accurate information about the Baha'i Faith and quote what Baha'u'llah wrote. If you are turned away by that it is not because of me. You just want to blame me for what you concluded but that won't work.

You cannot blame another student in the class because you got the answers wrong on the exam. That won't fly with the teacher and it will not fly with God on judgment day. If Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God you are accountable to God for recognizing Him. That is what is hanging in the balance and it is your own decision.

Oh, absolute garbage. Don't present yourself as another student in the class when in post 5520 you said you were teaching the faith. You have been a representative of what Bahai's are like and how they present their faith. And you, as a representative of Bahai's, have been hypocritical and fallacious. You have shown that you are more interested in weaseling out of things instead of admitting that you can't answer my questions. My opinion of the Bahai faith has certainly been influenced by you, and you have made Bahai look bad.

I never said anyone should believe it. We can choose to believe it or not. That is what free will is for.

Again, nobody should believe it unless they choose to believe it for their own reasons.
I believe it because of the evidence.

Evidence which by your own admission is insufficient to justify belief.

The average person could not do miracles. You can read about the miracles but I cannot prove that Baha'u'llah did miracles, so what good is that to you?

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

And which of these alleged miracles could not have happened save for divine intervention?

The first one certainly doesn't need God. People who have trouble conceiving a child can fall pregnant without God doing something. Looking through the others, I see nothing which can not be explained by non-miraculous causes.

You said: "You mean that thing that you said shouldn't be tested because it wasn't meant literally?"
The answer is yes, that is what I meant.

I did not say it means anything, I only said I am certain.

My point was that Jesus' claim that it was faith that can move mountains is meaningless because you have argued many times that it doesn't actually mean it can move mountains.

 

[Tiberius]

The objective facts of the Baha'i Faith and the Writings of Baha'u'llah are not my personal opinion.

And no one is disputing them, are they?

 

[Trailblazer]

And no one is disputing them, are they?

I did not say you were disputing them. I said those facts are not my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then that's an argument AGAINST me becoming a Bahai, since right now I have no reason to think that the UHJ knows more about God than me.

Of course you would have no reason to think that the UHJ knows more about God than you do since you are not a Baha'i, and the UHJ does not know any more about God than any other Baha'is.

Pick what you want to believe and research it until you believe it.

That's hardly a good way to find TRUTH.

Stop misrepresenting me. I did not do that. FIRST I researched the Baha'i Faith and after that I picked it. That's a good way to find truth.

In this we are agreed. You can not research your way into a religious belief, since religious beliefs are not rational.

That is not what I said. I did not say "You can not research your way into a religious belief, since religious beliefs are not rational."

You conveniently ignored my question and changed the subject.
I said: "Why would it MATTER what I did? The only thing that matters is whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. How much research I did before I became a Baha'i has NO BEARING upon whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. There is no logical connection."

Sounds to me that different people have different standards for what counts as convincing evidence.

That's right.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lemme guess, if a source says that Bahai is false, you're gonna say it's not an accurate source, right?

That would not be a source, it would be a personal opinion.
Facts are facts. If a website misrepresents the facts about the Baha'i Faith then it is false.

And that person is not qualified to say that their car is the best car, are they?

They are free to believe that their car is the best car and you cannot do a damn thing about it.

It's gotten me the conclusion that they are all garbage.

Fine then, we should be coming to an end of these discussions.

Hilarious.

Do you have any idea how many religions say, "He have to be a good person AND believe in our religion if you want to get into Heaven"? Just about ALL of them! Once again, Bahai is just a rehash of what came before. Nothing special at all.

It's no use talking to you because you are too illogical and without logic there is no hope you will ever see the light.

It does not MATTER if other religions say about heaven, it only matters if the Baha'i Faith is true. None of this other stuff you spew forth about what I believe or how I came to believe it or what other religions teach has any bearing on whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not.

For almost a year now you have been conveniently sidestepping the ONLY thing that matters by going off on various tangents that do not matter and do not have anything to do with whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not.

So you gave equal weighting to researching sources that showed why the Bahai claims were false, did you? What were these sources?

I read all the accurate information about the Baha'i Faith, the objective facts.
I do not care about personal opinions of people who say the Baha'i Faith is true or false.

By your own admission, the objective evidence about Bahai is NOT SUFFICIENT to justify the conclusion that God spoke to Mr B.

It is sufficient for me.

So tell me, once and for all, is your belief about what God wants an opinion or not an opinion?

It is a belief, based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote.

My opinion of the Bahai faith has certainly been influenced by you, and you have made Bahai look bad.

Ask me if I care if you have a bad opinion of the Baha'i Faith. I could not care less. I won't be the loser because I know the truth about God and nobody can take that away from me.

There is no way you are going to blame me for your opinions, I am too psychologically healthy to feel guilty because of what other people choose to believe. I am in no way responsible for your choices. I know that what you choose to believe is ALL your choice and ALL your responsibility. It would be good for you if you realized that and stopped blaming me but I am not holding my breath.

Evidence which by your own admission is insufficient to justify belief.

That is a straw man. I never said that.
I believe that the evidence is sufficient to justify belief. Otherwise I would not believe.
Whether the evidence is sufficient for you is your problem, not mine.

And which of these alleged miracles could not have happened save for divine intervention?.

I don't know and I don't care. I never even read those since I don't care about miracles. You are free to believe whatever you want to about them.

 

[Tiberius]

I did not say you were disputing them. I said those facts are not my opinion.

DID I SAY THEY WERE?

No, I did not.

Once again you misrepresent my claims by talking about something tangentially related, but not actually what was being discussed.

What IS your opinion is what you are "teaching" us, as you said to @samtonga43 in post 5520. And it is THAT which I am disagreeing with.

 

[Tiberius]

Of course you would have no reason to think that the UHJ knows more about God than you do since you are not a Baha'i, and the UHJ does not know any more about God than any other Baha'is.

So, like I said, why should I bother listening to them or any other Bahai when they tell me that thjeir belief is right?

Stop misrepresenting me. I did not do that. FIRST I researched the Baha'i Faith and after that I picked it. That's a good way to find truth.

Once again, it was a general "you", not referring to you specifically.

That is not what I said. I did not say "You can not research your way into a religious belief, since religious beliefs are not rational."

You conveniently ignored my question and changed the subject.
I said: "Why would it MATTER what I did? The only thing that matters is whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. How much research I did before I became a Baha'i has NO BEARING upon whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false. There is no logical connection."

And I was agreeing with you. The research you do on a religion has nothing to do with whether that religion is right or wrong. And my claim is still valid, since it follows from what you said that you don't resarch your way into a religious belief.

That's right.

And religion hates people who have high standards for evidence...

 

[Tiberius]

That would not be a source, it would be a personal opinion.
Facts are facts. If a website misrepresents the facts about the Baha'i Faith then it is false.

And if the source says Bahai is correct, would you also count that as an opinion, not a source?

They are free to believe that their car is the best car and you cannot do a damn thing about it.

I take it that you are unable to answer the question.

That person is not qualified to say that their car is the best car, are they?

Fine then, we should be coming to an end of these discussions.

Perhaps. However, as long as you present arguments for your belief which I find flawed, I will point out those flaws.

And don't bother saying that you aren't presenting arguments. No one buys that excuse and I'll ignore it anyway.

It's no use talking to you because you are too illogical and without logic there is no hope you will ever see the light.

It does not MATTER if other religions say about heaven, it only matters if the Baha'i Faith is true. None of this other stuff you spew forth about what I believe or how I came to believe it or what other religions teach has any bearing on whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not.

For almost a year now you have been conveniently sidestepping the ONLY thing that matters by going off on various tangents that do not matter and do not have anything to do with whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not.

You call me illogical, yet you apparently can't conceive that a Christian would say the exact same thing, only substituting "Christianity" for Bahai. "It only matters if Christianity is true," this hypothetical Christian would say.

I read all the accurate information about the Baha'i Faith, the objective facts.
I do not care about personal opinions of people who say the Baha'i Faith is true or false.

"I looked at all the objective specifications for my car, that's how I know it's the best. I didn't listen to anyone's opinion about the car. The fact that I didn't look at the specifications of any other car doesn't bother me at all!"

It is sufficient for me.

Then you are apparently quite happy to abandon logic and reason in your search for objective truth.

It is a belief, based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote.

Is it an opinion or is it not an opinion? Please just answer the question.

Ask me if I care if you have a bad opinion of the Baha'i Faith. I could not care less. I won't be the loser because I know the truth about God and nobody can take that away from me.

You think I care that you believe in God? I don't. You're welcome to believe in God all you want. I have never tried to say otherwise.

There is no way you are going to blame me for your opinions, I am too psychologically healthy to feel guilty because of what other people choose to believe. I am in no way responsible for your choices. I know that what you choose to believe is ALL your choice and ALL your responsibility. It would be good for you if you realized that and stopped blaming me but I am not holding my breath.

Yeah, right.

And if the staff at the local restaurant made the place look bad - rude waiters, slow service, waiters who use rotten ingredients, etc - would you say that they gave you a poor impression of the restaurant? You'd say to them, "You've made me think this restaurant is just terrible, and I'll never eat here again." h

Now tell me, how would you feel if they replied, "Whatever, lady, I'm not to blame for your opinions, and I'm not responsible for your choices. What you believe about this restaurant is your choice and your responsibility, so stop blaming me for it."

That is a straw man. I never said that.
I believe that the evidence is sufficient to justify belief. Otherwise I would not believe.
Whether the evidence is sufficient for you is your problem, not mine.

"Actually, the answer is that there is nothing in the objective facts that could only have happened if he was divinely inspired. So we are right back to square one. You want some proof that Baha’u’llah received communication from God but there is no way to prove that." Those are your own words from Post 5449.

By your own admission, there is nothing that Mr B did, said, or wrote that is sufficient evidence to lead to the conclusion that he was a messenger from God.

I don't know and I don't care. I never even read those since I don't care about miracles. You are free to believe whatever you want to about them.

How can you present them as evidence when you don't even know what they are?

Are you just taking someone else's OPINION that these support Mr B's claims of divinity? Isn't that FORBIDDEN?

 

[Trailblazer]

What IS your opinion is what you are "teaching" us, as you said to @samtonga43 in post 5520. And it is THAT which I am disagreeing with.

No, nothing I am teaching anyone is my opinion, it is the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith and the teachings of Baha'u'llah contained in His Writings.