Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

No, nothing I am teaching anyone is my opinion, it is the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith and the teachings of Baha'u'llah contained in His Writings.

Yeah, sure. Most of your posts do not reference the objective facts, and those that do only mention them as one small part of the larger post.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, like I said, why should I bother listening to them or any other Bahai when they tell me that their belief is right?

I never said you should. I said you shouldn't listen but rather you should make up your own mind.

And I was agreeing with you. The research you do on a religion has nothing to do with whether that religion is right or wrong.

Then why do you keep pressing the issue of how much research I did?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, sure. Most of your posts do not reference the objective facts, and those that do only mention them as one small part of the larger post.

I have posted the link to the objective facts over and over and over again only to be told "that's not evidence."

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Why would I discuss the objective facts when nobody wants to talk about them?

 

[Trailblazer]

And if the source says Bahai is correct, would you also count that as an opinion, not a source?

It would be an opinion.

And don't bother saying that you aren't presenting arguments. No one buys that excuse and I'll ignore it anyway.

Please note I am ignoring much of your post.

You call me illogical, yet you apparently can't conceive that a Christian would say the exact same thing, only substituting "Christianity" for Bahai. "It only matters if Christianity is true," this hypothetical Christian would say.

So what if a Christian said that? What would that SAY about whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false? NOTHING, thus it is irrelevant to this discussion.

"I looked at all the objective specifications for my car, that's how I know it's the best. I didn't listen to anyone's opinion about the car. The fact that I didn't look at the specifications of any other car doesn't bother me at all!"

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

Then you are apparently quite happy to abandon logic and reason in your search for objective truth.

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

Is it an opinion or is it not an opinion? Please just answer the question.

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

You think I care that you believe in God? I don't. You're welcome to believe in God all you want. I have never tried to say otherwise.

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

Yeah, right.

And if the staff at the local restaurant made the place look bad - rude waiters, slow service, waiters who use rotten ingredients, etc - would you say that they gave you a poor impression of the restaurant? You'd say to them, "You've made me think this restaurant is just terrible, and I'll never eat here again." h

Now tell me, how would you feel if they replied, "Whatever, lady, I'm not to blame for your opinions, and I'm not responsible for your choices. What you believe about this restaurant is your choice and your responsibility, so stop blaming me for it."

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

"Actually, the answer is that there is nothing in the objective facts that could only have happened if he was divinely inspired. So we are right back to square one. You want some proof that Baha’u’llah received communication from God but there is no way to prove that." Those are your own words from Post 5449.

By your own admission, there is nothing that Mr B did, said, or wrote that is sufficient evidence to lead to the conclusion that he was a messenger from God.

No, I never admitted that. There is no proof that Baha’u’llah received communication from God but there is sufficient evidence.

How can you present them as evidence when you don't even know what they are?

Are you just taking someone else's OPINION that these support Mr B's claims of divinity? Isn't that FORBIDDEN?

I did not present them as evidence. You asked, I answered.
Do you see the miracles listed as evidence in the link I posted with evidence? No.

 

[Tiberius]

Then why do you keep pressing the issue of how much research I did?

Because you are the one bring up the research you did as though it means something.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because you are the one bring up the research you did as though it means something.

I never said it means anything, not to anyone but me.

 

[Tiberius]

I have posted the link to the objective facts over and over and over again only to be told "that's not evidence."

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Why would I discuss the objective facts when nobody wants to talk about them?

What you posted here is Mr B making two claims. First, he claimed that he was God's messenger, second, he claimed that he was the messiah that was spoken of in all the prophecies in other religions.

The evidence you present for this is the writings of Mr B.

Does that seem logically sound to you?

Perhaps I can make some big claims like that, and then write my own book which I then present as evidence that I was telling the truth.

Let's try it.

I, Tiberius, hereby claim that I can turn into a giant, fire-breathing dragon at will!
​

And as evidence to back up this claim,. I will present a sample of my own writing.

And lo, they did behold that even as they watched, Tiberius began to change his form, and soon he no longer appeared to them as a person, but as a dragon of giant size. He opened his mouth which was filled with fearsome teeth, and a great flame came forth.​

Look at that! I made a claim and presented my own writing as evidence which clearly states that my claim is true. I guess you have no choice but to believe that I can turn into a giant dragon now, since the evidence I presented was identical in nature to that which Mr B presented to support the claims he made!

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

What you posted here is Mr B making two claims. First, he claimed that he was God's messenger, second, he claimed that he was the messiah that was spoken of in all the prophecies in other religions.

The evidence you present for this is the writings of Mr B.

Does that seem logically sound to you?

Perhaps I can make some big claims like that, and then write my own book which I then present as evidence that I was telling the truth.

Let's try it.

I, Tiberius, hereby claim that I can turn into a giant, fire-breathing dragon at will!
​

And as evidence to back up this claim,. I will present a sample of my own writing.

And lo, they did behold that even as they watched, Tiberius began to change his form, and soon he no longer appeared to them as a person, but as a dragon of giant size. He opened his mouth which was filled with fearsome teeth, and a great flame came forth.​

Look at that! I made a claim and presented my own writing as evidence which clearly states that my claim is true. I guess you have no choice but to believe that I can turn into a giant dragon now, since the evidence I presented was identical in nature to that which Mr B presented to support the claims he made!

HOLY CRAP!!!!!

I thought your kind was extinct! Are you chromatic or metallic?

Mind if I got a photo with you?

 

[Tiberius]

It would be an opinion.

Now, what about the Bible? Is that objective fact or just opinion?

So what if a Christian said that? What would that SAY about whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false? NOTHING, thus it is irrelevant to this discussion.

I'm pointing out that their claims to support their religion are completely identical to the claims you make to support yours. Since you don't buy there claims, that should indicate to yours that yours are equally easy to disregard.

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

The structure is identical to your argument and shows the logical flaw in it. You are avoiding responsibility for your claims.

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

I am not talking about whether it is true or not. I am talking about if there is sufficient justification for believing it. It is very relevant if your conclusion is based on sound reasoning or not.

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

So what? We can talk about stuff other than that. We HAVE been talking about stuff other than that.

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

Again, so what?

Not relevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or false.
I won't be wasting any more time replying to what is not relevant.

Doesn't matter, you've already done the damage.

No, I never admitted that. There is no proof that Baha’u’llah received communication from God but there is sufficient evidence.

No, there is not sufficient evidence, since everything he did can be explained without needing to invoke God.

I did not present them as evidence. You asked, I answered.

I asked for something which could not have happened without divine intervention. I would count such a thing as evidence for your claims. You've provided nothing.

Do you see the miracles listed as evidence in the link I posted with evidence? No.

You mean that link to the objective facts which just talks about the claims he made? Yeah, that means nothing, and I've already explained why.

 

[Trailblazer]

The evidence you present for this is the writings of Mr B.

Does that seem logically sound to you?

It certainly is logically sound for the person making the claim to tell us what the evidence is that supports His claim. Who else is going to tell us what the evidence is, the flying spaghetti monster?

Baha'u'llah told us what the evidence is that supports His claims. The Writings are part of the evidence but they are not the first things He told us to look at. His own self and His Revelation are the first things we are to look at and if those are insufficient we are to look at His Writings (the words He hath revealed).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps I can make some big claims like that, and then write my own book which I then present as evidence that I was telling the truth.

The Writings are not the evidence. If you still do not understand after all this time, you never will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, what about the Bible? Is that objective fact or just opinion?

I'm pointing out that their claims to support their religion are completely identical to the claims you make to support yours. Since you don't buy there claims, that should indicate to yours that yours are equally easy to disregard.

The structure is identical to your argument and shows the logical flaw in it. You are avoiding responsibility for your claims.

I am not talking about whether it is true or not. I am talking about if there is sufficient justification for believing it. It is very relevant if your conclusion is based on sound reasoning or not.

So what? We can talk about stuff other than that. We HAVE been talking about stuff other than that.

Again, so what?

Doesn't matter, you've already done the damage.

No, there is not sufficient evidence, since everything he did can be explained without needing to invoke God.

I asked for something which could not have happened without divine intervention. I would count such a thing as evidence for your claims. You've provided nothing.

You mean that link to the objective facts which just talks about the claims he made? Yeah, that means nothing, and I've already explained why.

I won't be listening to any more of your complaints and criticisms because I don't have to.
This is just a forum, not a real life job.
I am not your waiter who is obligated to bring you evidence to your liking.
I won't be wasting any more time covering the same old ground.
If you don't know my position by now you never will.
You are free to disregard anything you want to disregard.
If nothing means anything to you and no evidence is sufficient, then happy trails.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation.

This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men.

If you would allow me to impede momentarily your journey, I feel compelled to share my two cents regarding this matter. It is my hope to possibly reveal a perspective you had not yet considered.

First pence:

I have told my own mother when she tried to argue that one of my siblings was special and that this was a fact and self-evident.
My reply was akin to, "Mother, that is true within your imagination. As soon as your tongue allows it to leave your inner dialect, it loses the value it had within your mind. There are nearly 7 billion people who have never and never will ever hear of my name. I may be special to you, but I am in no way special to them. So, the claim is true as long as it remains a belief held within your head."

Last cent:
"And I can fight only for something that I love, love only what I respect, and respect only what I at least know."
"Words build bridges into unexplored regions."
"Life is like a mirror, if you frown at it, it frowns back; if you smile, it returns the greeting."
"Never deprive someone of hope; it may be all they have."
"Only those who are passionate themselves can arouse passion in others."
"People may not always believe what you say, but they will believe what you do."
"When you are in light, everything will follow you. But when you enter dark, even your own shadow will not follow you, that is life."
"One cannot live faithfully and give up what has given meaning and purpose to one's entire life."
"Do not let what other people think stop you from doing the things you love."

These are inspirational quotes that are supposedly attributed to Adolf Hitler. My point being that even evil men can have ideas and testimony that ring of virtue, or at least appear to be righteous in nature. Take these two thoughts that struck me when reading your comment with as little or as much validity as you feel appropriate.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It is strange, but since they kept saying "that's not evidence" I wanted to know what they think would be evidence of God's existence.

I get that.

I just think it's strange to ask someone who doesn't believe in a thing to ask them what would convince them that the thing is real. Evidence for sure, but as to what specific evidence? I have no idea. What have you got?

 

[Trailblazer]

I just think it's strange to ask someone who doesn't believe in a thing to ask them what would convince them that the thing is real.

Maybe that is why only a few atheists answered my question.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Maybe that is why only a few atheists answered my question.

Could be.

 

[Sheldon]

I get that.

I just think it's strange to ask someone who doesn't believe in a thing to ask them what would convince them that the thing is real. Evidence for sure, but as to what specific evidence? I have no idea. What have you got?

My exact response each time, give the best reason you think you have, it never ever goes beyond subjective unevidenced claims. More often than not, it meets with stunned reticence.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe that is why only a few atheists answered my question.

That's not true, this thread has 278 pages for goodness sake.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not true, this thread has 278 pages for goodness sake.

Not many atheists answered the questions below.

So if “that’s not evidence” what would be evidence of God’s existence?
If God existed, where would we get the evidence? How would we get it?

Instead, this thread went off track early on.

 

[Sheldon]

Not many atheists answered the questions below.

So if “that’s not evidence” what would be evidence of God’s existence?

Of course they have, just because their answers don't satisfy your expectations doesn't mean they haven't answered you.

What is evidence of a flingallopsy?

Or do you believe a flingallopsy is real?

Ask me anything you want about a flingallopsy by the way.