Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

They did not all look at the same information.
It is independent because they each investigated the information independently.

That's about as convincing as saying that the Bible isn't one source. It's all based off each other. It's not independent.

All the authoritative Baha'i Writings can be found here:

They can be found in the Baha’i Reference Library:

Baha’i Reference Library (old version)
Baha’i Reference Library (new version, downloadable)

There are also many other books written about the Baha'i Faith.

And all based off each. Not independent.

Show me something that doesn't reference any other Bahai work, either directly or indirectly.

 

[samtonga43]

Case in point: Anyone can see that my beliefs bother the hell out of a certain Christian on this thread since she has been stalking me, following me from thread to thread for a whole year, criticizing my thinking process and my beliefs, but I do not know what is in her subconscious mind that is causing her stalking behavior. I can hazard a guess but I cannot know.

Logical Fallacy 1:
"Anyone can see..." = Bandwagon + Overgeneralization.
Logical Fallacy 2:
"My beliefs bother the hell out of a certain Christian" = False Assumption. Ukraine bothers the hell out of me; child poverty bothers the hell out of me; racism bothers the hell out of me. Abuse of any kind bothers the hell out of me.
Your beliefs shrink into insignificance.

I fully agree! The Christian on this thread who has been stalking me for a year is a case in point. She says she is doing this so 'others need to know' how illogical I am but I do not think that is not the reason. Nobody follows one person from thread to thread and criticizes them constantly unless they have some kind of subconscious fear, bias or need.

There are many people here "criticizing you constantly".
Do they all have some kind of subconscious fear, bias or need? Your opinion of yourself is vastly over-rated, Tb.
*****************
*

For example, why is this Christian stalking me?

You have accused me of 'stalking you' a few times now. This is a serious accusation. Before I take this further, I would like to see your evidence for your accusation.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation."

@Trailblazer, we must be careful how much zealotry we emphasize on ideas like this excerpt. My example would be that Hitler claimed that come the time of revelation or reunion with God, he would rise up to heaven because he was following what he believed was His plan for him. At the same time, we have no idea, maybe he wasn't the bat**** crazy loons... Maybe those of us disgusted by his motives are the crazy ones?

Nah. Hitler was definitely insane, and full of angst.

That's about as convincing as saying that the Bible isn't one source. It's all based off each other. It's not independent.

@Tiberius, even more-so than you seem to be acknowledging here.

Q: But what was it (Bible) based off of?
A: The ancient 'Mysteries' akin to Kabbalistic teachings.

Q: Well, then what were they ('Mysteries') based off of?
A: The archaic observations and accompanying philosophies of this physical world which is seemingly filled with non-physical entities (ideas & emotions).

P.S. Astronomy replaced astrology, chemistry replaced alchemy, anthropology/psychology replaced mysticism, and geometry/mathematics evolved but retained the same nomenclature... As an over-generalization of most of our religious texts and their primordial roots.

P.P.S. Some of the oldest religious-related texts from India lay out the process of building a brick oven for creating structures such as houses or temples, it does so partially in metaphors. Metaphors are a strong part of all religious texts that I have read, my guess for a reason of that would be that perhaps such story-like versions of information persist the strain of time better than facts and stats? I have no clue, just a guess. Perhaps it was just to maintain the "Good ol' Boys club" membership from outsiders.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do they all have some kind of subconscious fear, bias or need?

No doubt they do. Otherwise why would they have to keep talking about me all the time instead of minding their own business and speaking on their own behalf.

Either they are worried about my beliefs being true or they have an obsession with me....
Either way it is no doubt subconscious.

You have accused me of 'stalking you' a few times now. This is a serious accusation. Before I take this further, I would like to see your evidence for your accusation.

The evidence is plastered all over the forum. It is also in your own Profile page.
You have been reported before for your stalking behavior so the staff knows about it.

You can't leave me alone, anyone can see that.
If you cannot see it maybe it is subconscious.

 

[Trailblazer]

My aim is to show that your beliefs are not justified. You can not claim to KNOW FOR A FACT that your religious beliefs are true, yet you have done so many times. My aim is to point out that this conclusion is not a valid one.

If that is your aim you are wasting your time. You are not going to make me see that my beliefs are not justified.
You can 'believe' that my beliefs are not justified but you cannot 'decide for me' what is justified.

Many times I have told you that I do not KNOW FOR A FACT that my religious beliefs are true, because my religious can never be proven true AS A FACT. I have explained the reason I know and you poke fun of me, but that is the reason I know, because I was guided by God. But that is not the only reason I know. I also know because I did my own research. God guides people who have a sincere desire to believe and do their homework.

If it bothers you that I say I know, the question you should be asking yourself is why it bothers you.

Evidence which you say can't actually prove it, and the proof you say you have can't be shown to anyone else.

Evidence is not proof.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

No, I cannot make you see what I see and think like me so you will believe like me, that is impossible. I am a separate person. It is possible that you could come to realize that the Baha'i Faith is true, but you would have to come to that belief on your own, from doing your own independent investigation.

God guides those who make efforts which implies that those who do not make efforts will not be guided.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

People who rebel against the Signs of God (which are His Messengers) cannot be guided, because God does not override free will to MAKE people believe in Him.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

 

[Trailblazer]

And the effects exhibited in their behaviour can give us indications as to what the thoughts and feelings are.

That's true, we can guess what their thoughts and feelings might be, but we cannot know what they are.
We cannot know because we cannot see what is in anyone's mind.

So are the claims separate to the writings or not?

If they are, then show me the claims without bringing up the writings.

If you can not do this, then the writings and the claims are the same thing.

The claims are in the writings but everything in the writings is not a claim.
In fact, most of what is in the writings is not a claim. Baha'u'llah's messages and teachings and laws are in the writings but they are not His claims. Do you want some examples?

I cannot show you the claims without bringing up the writings because the claims are in the writings.

What I mean by a claim is who Baha'u'llah claimed to be, a Messenger of God, the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's about as convincing as saying that the Bible isn't one source. It's all based off each other. It's not independent.

And all based off each. Not independent.

Show me something that doesn't reference any other Bahai work, either directly or indirectly.

I do not know what you mean by independent.
I do not know what you are looking for or what your goal is.
It seems to me that we have gotten off track again.

 

[samtonga43]

You have been reported before for your stalking behavior so the staff knows about it.

I have? I wonder why I haven't heard from them... Should I contact them about your accusation of stalking?

BTW, you do know that I only post on one forum, and on a couple of threads on that forum, don't you?

Are you mixing me up with someone else?

 

[CG Didymus]

Why do you believe the text is true?

Because what it said would happen is what happened to me.

Why did it happen that as the text said?

Because what the text said was true.

Why do you believe the text is true?

Because what it said would happen is what happened to me.

Why did it happen that as the text said?

Because what the text said was true.

Why do you believe the text is true?

Because what it said would happen is what happened to me.

Why did it happen that as the text said?

Because what the text said was true.

Why do you believe the text is true?

Because what it said would happen is what happened to me.

Why did it happen that as the text said?

Because what the text said was true.

And so on...

My brother is a 7th Day Adventist... same thing. "The prophecies are coming true just like the Bible said. My life has changed just like the Bible said." My wife's ex is a Scientologist, and he says, "My life has changed just like L. Ron said it would." All that stuff is like self-fulfilling prophecies. Good things happen? "Ah, I'm being blessed just like God promised. Bad stuff? "God said he would test me." Different beliefs but same results? Then does it matter what religion or what a person believes? It kind of doesn't. No matter which religion, it gives them a positive outlook on life, which ain't bad. But does it make the religion true? The happiest, most positive person I ever met was a Buddhist. And she didn't believe in a God and believed in reincarnation.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have? I wonder why I haven't heard from them...

A long time ago they recommended I place you in Ignore if I don't like what you are posting, but I did not do that because I need to be on guard for what you post about me that is inaccurate.

 

[samtonga43]

A long time ago they recommended I place you in Ignore if I don't like what you are posting, but I did not do that because I need to be on guard for what you post about me that is inaccurate.

Hmm... I would have thought that they would have contacted me if they thought I was a stalker. That's really serious. How do I ask them about this situation?

Just in case you didn't see this...
You do know that I only post on one forum, and on a couple of threads on that forum, don't you?

Are you mixing me up with someone else?

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmm... I would have thought that they would have contacted me if they thought I was a stalker. That's really serious. How do I ask them about this situation?

I did not say that they thought you were a stalker. They are not the ones being stalked so they don't know what it is like to be stalked. A policeman might not believe a person who reports a stalker but that does not mean there is no stalker running about.

Just in case you didn't see this...
You do know that I only post on one forum, and on a couple of threads on that forum, don't you?

Are you mixing me up with someone else?

I don't know because all I can see is what is in your Profile and that is only recent posts, not everything you have ever posted. There might be a way for me to find out though.

Are you claiming that you have posted on threads other than the ones where I see you talking about me? If that is a claim where is the evidence? Can you tell me the names of these threads?

 

[Tiberius]

If that is your aim you are wasting your time. You are not going to make me see that my beliefs are not justified.
You can 'believe' that my beliefs are not justified but you cannot 'decide for me' what is justified.

Many times I have told you that I do not KNOW FOR A FACT that my religious beliefs are true, because my religious can never be proven true AS A FACT. I have explained the reason I know and you poke fun of me, but that is the reason I know, because I was guided by God. But that is not the only reason I know. I also know because I did my own research. God guides people who have a sincere desire to believe and do their homework.

If it bothers you that I say I know, the question you should be asking yourself is why it bothers you.

Evidence is not proof.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

No, I cannot make you see what I see and think like me so you will believe like me, that is impossible. I am a separate person. It is possible that you could come to realize that the Baha'i Faith is true, but you would have to come to that belief on your own, from doing your own independent investigation.

God guides those who make efforts which implies that those who do not make efforts will not be guided.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

People who rebel against the Signs of God (which are His Messengers) cannot be guided, because God does not override free will to MAKE people believe in Him.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

Gotta love it.

You say that evidence is not proof, then post a definition of "proof" that starts by saying, "Proof is evidence that helps to establish a fact or the truth of a statement..."

 

[Tiberius]

The claims are in the writings but everything in the writings is not a claim.
In fact, most of what is in the writings is not a claim. Baha'u'llah's messages and teachings and laws are in the writings but they are not His claims. Do you want some examples?

I cannot show you the claims without bringing up the writings because the claims are in the writings.

What I mean by a claim is who Baha'u'llah claimed to be, a Messenger of God, the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

Yeah, you've posted that before.

Yet you completely failed to answer my question.

If they are separate to the writings, then show me the claims without bringing up the writings.​

If you can not do this, then the writings and the claims are the same thing.​

 

[Tiberius]

I do not know what you mean by independent.
I do not know what you are looking for or what your goal is.
It seems to me that we have gotten off track again.

The definition of "independent" is easy to find, and you have posted so many definitions I can't believe you would have trouble finding it.

 

[Tiberius]

My brother is a 7th Day Adventist... same thing. "The prophecies are coming true just like the Bible said. My life has changed just like the Bible said." My wife's ex is a Scientologist, and he says, "My life has changed just like L. Ron said it would." All that stuff is like self-fulfilling prophecies. Good things happen? "Ah, I'm being blessed just like God promised. Bad stuff? "God said he would test me." Different beliefs but same results? Then does it matter what religion or what a person believes? It kind of doesn't. No matter which religion, it gives them a positive outlook on life, which ain't bad. But does it make the religion true? The happiest, most positive person I ever met was a Buddhist. And she didn't believe in a God and believed in reincarnation.

My life has been filled with random events that have been beneficial and detrimental to me, just as reason said would happen in a Godless universe! This proves the universe is Godless!

 

[Trailblazer]

Gotta love it.

You say that evidence is not proof, then post a definition of "proof" that starts by saying, "Proof is evidence that helps to establish a fact or the truth of a statement..."

I guess you missed the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence only indicates that something is true whereas proof is evidence that establishes something as a fact. Verifiable evidence is proof.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, you've posted that before.

Yet you completely failed to answer my question.

If they are separate to the writings, then show me the claims without bringing up the writings.​

If you can not do this, then the writings and the claims are the same thing.​

I did not say that the claims are SEPARATE from the writings, I said that the claims are IN the writings.
The claims and the writings are not the same thing. The claims are IN the writings.

For example…
Gleanings is an extraction of information from various Tablets... The claims of Baha’u’llah are found on pages 1- 46 of Gleanings. The remainder of the book is not claims… The Introduction of Gleanings explains what is contained in the book:

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.” Gleanings

Below are some of the claims that are found on pages 16, 32, and 33. In these passages, Bahaulah is claiming that He, a Messenger of God, has come. Note the parts I bolded for emphasis.

“Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! His all-conquering sovereignty is manifest; His all-encompassing splendor is revealed. Beware lest thou hesitate or halt. Hasten forth and circumambulate the City of God that hath descended from heaven, the celestial Kaaba round which have circled in adoration the favored of God, the pure in heart, and the company of the most exalted angels.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16

This is the Day whereon He Who is the Revealer of the names of God hath stepped out of the Tabernacle of glory, and proclaimed unto all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth: “Put away the cups of Paradise and all the life-giving waters they contain, for lo, the people of Bahá have entered the blissful abode of the Divine Presence, and quaffed the wine of reunion, from the chalice of the beauty of their Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 32

The Best-Beloved is come. In His right hand is the sealed Wine of His name. Happy is the man that turneth unto Him, and drinketh his fill, and exclaimeth: “Praise be to Thee, O Revealer of the signs of God!” By the righteousness of the Almighty! Every hidden thing hath been manifested through the power of truth. All the favors of God have been sent down, as a token of His grace. The waters of everlasting life have, in their fullness, been proffered unto men. Every single cup hath been borne round by the hand of the Well-Beloved. Draw near, and tarry not, though it be for one short moment.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 33

 

[Trailblazer]

The definition of "independent" is easy to find, and you have posted so many definitions I can't believe you would have trouble finding it.

I do not know what you mean by independent within the context of this discussion but I am fine with dropping this discussion as it was not my idea in the first place.

 

[Trailblazer]

My life has been filled with random events that have been beneficial and detrimental to me, just as reason said would happen in a Godless universe! This proves the universe is Godless!

Since you do not know why these things have happened in your life you cannot know if they are random things that would happen to you in a Godless universe.

In a universe where God exists, some of these things that happened to you could have been things that you chose with your free will and other things that happened to you could have been things that were predestined by God.