Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

I guess you missed the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence only indicates that something is true whereas proof is evidence that establishes something as a fact. Verifiable evidence is proof.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

You can't say that the two are completely different things and then turn around and say that proof is a type of evidence.

 

[Tiberius]

I did not say that the claims are SEPARATE from the writings, I said that the claims are IN the writings.
The claims and the writings are not the same thing. The claims are IN the writings.

Irrelevant. Part of the writings IS the claim.

You can't say they are not the same thing and then say the claims are a part of the writings.

 

[Tiberius]

Since you do not know why these things have happened in your life you cannot know if they are random things that would happen to you in a Godless universe.

In a universe where God exists, some of these things that happened to you could have been things that you chose with your free will and other things that happened to you could have been things that were predestined by God.

Oh, trust me, friend, I DO know.

 

[KWED]

I guess you missed the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence only indicates that something is true whereas proof is evidence that establishes something as a fact. Verifiable evidence is proof.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

But as you have admitted that your beliefs have neither, I'm not sure what the point is here.

 

[KWED]

In a universe where God exists, some of these things that happened to you could have been things that you chose with your free will and other things that happened to you could have been things that were predestined by God.

So you now admit that god does remove our free will, at least in some circumstances.
I think we're finally getting somewhere.

 

[samtonga43]

I did not say that they thought you were a stalker. They are not the ones being stalked so they don't know what it is like to be stalked. A policeman might not believe a person who reports a stalker but that does not mean there is no stalker running about.

I did not say that you said they thought I am a stalker. Anyone can see that it is you, and only you, who thinks I am a stalker.
Maybe, like the policeman, the staff did not believe you...?

I don't know because all I can see is what is in your Profile and that is only recent posts, not everything you have ever posted. There might be a way for me to find out though.

I have posted on one or two other threads. When you find out the names of these threads, do let me know, because I have forgotten. I don’t have as much time away from real life as you seem to have.

Tell me, Tb:--
Tiberius,
and KWED,
and CG Didymus,
and Policy,
and Aupmanyav,
and night912,
and Sheldon,
and Honestjoe
and others
are all on the same two threads that we (samtonga and Tb) are on.

Now, use that logical thinking you say you have.
Are we all stalkers?

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me, Tb:--
Tiberius,
and KWED,
and CG Didymus,
and Policy,
and Aupmanyav,
and night912,
and Sheldon,
and Honestjoe
and others
are all on the same two threads that we (samtonga and Tb) are on.

Now, use that logical thinking you say you have.
Are we all stalkers?

Just because people are on the same threads I am on that does not mean they are stalkers. What determines if they are stalking me is if they FOLLOW ME from thread to thread and exhibit certain behaviors.

What is being stalked like?

A crime in many jurisdictions, it generally involves unwanted or obsessive attention, following, harassing, or monitoring behavior that might cause a reasonable person to experience fear. Jan 13, 2017

What It Feels Like to Be Stalked (Let Alone Three Times) - GoodTherapy
https://www.goodtherapy.org › blog › what-it-feels-like-t...

 

[Trailblazer]

But as you have admitted that your beliefs have neither, I'm not sure what the point is here.

My beliefs have an available body of facts or information indicating *to me* that they are true.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

 

[Trailblazer]

So you now admit that god does remove our free will, at least in some circumstances.
I think we're finally getting somewhere.

God never removes our free will but not everything is subject to free will.
Many things that happen to us are not chosen, they are predestined (fated) by God to occur.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure them because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the bad things happen are beyond our control. That is our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.

In short, God is responsible for both the Good and the Bad things that happen to us, those things that are not subject to free will and thus are beyond our control.

Isaiah 45:5-7
New International Version

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

 

[KWED]

My beliefs have an available body of facts or information indicating *to me* that they are true.

Ok. So what are these "facts"?
Remember that a "fact" is - A thing that is known or proved to be true. (OED)
So you cannot claim that your "beliefs" are "facts" if they are not "known or proved to be true".

 

[samtonga43]

Just because people are on the same threads I am on that does not mean they are stalkers. What determines if they are stalking me is if they FOLLOW ME from thread to thread and exhibit certain behaviors.

Please show your evidence that I have “followed you from thread to thread”.
Please identify the ‘certain behaviors’ I am exhibiting.

A crime in many jurisdictions.

I am committing a crime? Are you quite sure you want to say this on a public forum?

it generally involves unwanted or obsessive attention, following, harassing, or monitoring behavior that might cause a reasonable person to experience fear.

And this is what you believe I am doing? I am subjecting you to unwanted or obsessive attention, I am following, harassing, or monitoring you? You are afraid of me?

Tb, I would like you to think carefully about what I have said above. I look forward to your response.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. So what are these "facts"?
Remember that a "fact" is - A thing that is known or proved to be true. (OED)
So you cannot claim that your "beliefs" are "facts" if they are not "known or proved to be true".

They are the facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, the historical facts.

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please show your evidence that I have “followed you from thread to thread”.
Please identify the ‘certain behaviors’ I am exhibiting.

I am committing a crime? Are you quite sure you want to say this on a public forum?

And this is what you believe I am doing? I am subjecting you to unwanted or obsessive attention, I am following, harassing, or monitoring you? You are afraid of me?

Tb, I would like you to think carefully about what I have said above. I look forward to your response.

I never said that you were committing an crime. You can forget the whole thing. It is history. I do not live in the past.
I will let you know if I 'feel' like I am being stalked again.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't say that the two are completely different things and then turn around and say that proof is a type of evidence.

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Proof is a kind of evidence (verifiable evidence) that establishes something as a fact.
Therefore verifiable evidence is proof.

Other kinds of evidence that are NOT verifiable do not establish anything as a fact.
They only indicate whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

 

[Trailblazer]

Irrelevant. Part of the writings IS the claim.

You can't say they are not the same thing and then say the claims are a part of the writings.

I can say whatever I want to say. This is a public forum.

The claims are in the writings but the writings contain more than claims.
You are free to believe whatever you want to believe about that.

 

[ppp]

My beliefs have an available body of facts or information indicating *to me* that they are true.

Which is about as meaningful as someone saying that, My beliefs have an available body of facts or information indicating *to me* that I am Napoleon, Emperor of France.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is about as meaningful as someone saying that, My beliefs have an available body of facts or information indicating *to me* that I am Napoleon, Emperor of France.

No, I did not mean that at all but I can see how clumsy that sounded so let me re-word it.

There is an available body of facts about my religion and those facts indicate to me that my religion is true.

 

[ppp]

No, I did not mean that at all but I can see how clumsy that sounded so let me re-word it.

There is an available body of facts about my religion and those facts indicate to me that my religion is true.

The problem is not the subject. The problem is the *to me*

There is an available body of facts about __________ and those facts indicate to me that ________ is true.
You can literally stick anything in those slots from "water is wet" to "lizard men live next door" to "Elvis lives" to "cannibalism cures warts". to "I am Napoleon Emperor of France". It communicates your state of mind, but nothing about the whether or not your state of mind has any connection to reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem is not the subject. The problem is the *to me*

There is an available body of facts about __________ and those facts indicate to me that ________ is true.
You can literally stick anything in those slots from "water is wet" to "lizard men live next door" to "Elvis lives" to "cannibalism cures warts". to "I am Napoleon Emperor of France". It communicates your state of mind, but nothing about the whether or not your state of mind has any connection to reality.

I said the facts indicate to me that it is true because the facts do not indicate that it is true to everyone.

 

[ppp]

I said the facts indicate to me that it is true because the facts do not indicate that it is true to everyone.

I heard you the first time. You are still functionally indistinguishable from the woman who says "lizard men live next door" and the guy who says "cannibalism cures warts".