Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

I have seen both your posts and hers, which is why I posted as I did.

No, you have not see much because you only joined this forum in January of this year.
You have not see the half of it.

 

[samtonga43]

Interesting. aWr you a trinitarian? What do you think of the Baha'i claim that Jesus via not God?

Yes, Trinitarian (ex-atheist). I believe that Jesus was the second Person of the Trinity.

 

[samtonga43]

No, you have not see much because you only joined this forum in January of this year.
You have not see the half of it.

Time to step up, Tb. Please post the titles of the appropriate threads, in which I have behaved in the way you say I have.

 

[samtonga43]

You are the only one with false accusations. Your mess is so big you could never clean it up.

As I said, put your money where your mouth is, Tb.
Show us my false accusations.

 

[samtonga43]

Sometimes I said: "I never said you had been doing it." but sometimes I posted the fallacies because I thought you were actually committing them.

You 'thought' irrationally.

I do not want to discuss what I did in the past.

I think it is best that we drop this conversation about stalking.

I hope this is a lesson for you. No accusations, especially serious ones, without evidence.

 

[CG Didymus]

You 'thought' irrationally.

I hope this is a lesson for you. No accusations, especially serious ones, without evidence.

I enjoy her threads. I like all the Atheists that post on her threads. And I like you too. But I can't respond directly to any of her posts. They only caused misery for her and me. I think we are both better off.

 

[Tiberius]

Why not? Because the sample of your own writing is NOT evidence that backs up your claim.

So a person making a claim and then using their own writings to support this claim is not actually valid support in your eyes?

You don't seem to have a problem when it's the writings of Mr B being used to support the claims that Mr B made!

There's a term for that. DOUBLE STANDARDS. Do you have double standards?

 

[Tiberius]

We will choose to do what God knows we will choose because God is all-knowing so God knows what we will choose, but God's knowledge is not what causes us to choose what we choose. Free will is why we choose what we choose.

What God knows is not the cause of what we choose to do.
God knows the future because God is all-knowing so God has foreknowledge, but that foreknowledge does not cause the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God...
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

God is only responsible for what God actually does. Humans are fully accountable for what they choose to do because God gave humans free will to choose.

Yeah, you're just ignoring what I say, aren't you? Because I have answered this objection of your many times, you you keep bringing up the same point again and again.

I NEVER SAID IT IS GOD'S KNOWLEDGE THAT MAKES US DO WHAT WE DO.​

 

[Tiberius]

I said there is no way to verify it, I did not say there's no way to 'tell' one way or another.

If you can tell one way orthe other, that's verifying it.

It can be an objective truth if it is objectively true, but it cannot be an objective fact unless it can be proven to be true. That nuclear reactions were taking place within the sun was proven as a fact, but Baha'u'llah getting messages from God can never be proven as a fact.

fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

Again, Five hundred years ago, it was an objective fact that nuclear reactions were taking place within the sun, even if that knowledge couldn't be determined at that time.

It sure does.

Then demonstrating that IF seems to be the first thing you should do.

Since you have admitted you can't do that, then your entire argument is nothing more than an elaborate hypothetical, and you can't give any rational reason why anyone should think for a second that it applies to the real world.

 

[Tiberius]

I did not make an apology. I offered to delete posts that referred to stalking once she identifies them.

So you agree that you might have made a mistake and have offered to delete certain posts, but you don't feel that you have done anything that warrants an apoplogy?

Sometimes I said: "I never said you had been doing it." but sometimes I posted the fallacies because I thought you were actually committing them.

So when you said, "I never said you had committed those fallacies," you actually meant, "I think you have committed those fallacies sometimes."

In any case, I do not live in the past so I do not want to discuss what I did in the past. It is unhealthy to bring up the past and it only causes bad feelings. If you were ever married you would understand what I mean.

Not married, but I am in a long term relationship. De facto, if you will.

And no, I don't know what you mean, because my girlfriend and I have a healthy relationship where we don't feel the need to constantly bring up what happened in the past because we can actually deal with it like mature adults.

I think it is best that we drop this conversation about stalking. I told the poster I did not want to discuss this anymore, so I will consider it something in the past if she accepts my offer to delete the posts. If she does not accept that then it will be her own fault for keeping this going.

Perhaps next time you can discuss it in private with the staff rather than airing your dirty laundry in public.

 

[Trailblazer]

So a person making a claim and then using their own writings to support this claim is not actually valid support in your eyes?

No, it is not valid.

You don't seem to have a problem when it's the writings of Mr B being used to support the claims that Mr B made!

There's a term for that. DOUBLE STANDARDS. Do you have double standards?

You were saying that the claims in your writings are evidence that support your claim to be a fire-breathing dragon.
I am not saying that the claims in Baha'u'llah's writings are evidence that support His claim to be a Messenger of God.
There is no double standard.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, you're just ignoring what I say, aren't you? Because I have answered this objection of your many times, you you keep bringing up the same point again and again.

I NEVER SAID IT IS GOD'S KNOWLEDGE THAT MAKES US DO WHAT WE DO.​

I just addressed that on the other thread so you can see what I said there.

#136 Trailblazer, 18 minutes ago

 

[Trailblazer]

If you can tell one way or the other, that's verifying it.

That's right, but one can tell one way or the other without verifying it.

Again, Five hundred years ago, it was an objective fact that nuclear reactions were taking place within the sun, even if that knowledge couldn't be determined at that time.

That's right, and the same applies to God and Baha'u'llah. Even if that knowledge can't be determined at that time, it will be determined after you die and pass to the next world. It is best to get in on the ground floor, but Baha'u'llah said that some fruit does not ripen until it falls from the tree. At least when you die you will remember what I have told you and that will give you a leg up in recognizing Baha'u'llah in the next world.

Then demonstrating that IF seems to be the first thing you should do.

Since you have admitted you can't do that, then your entire argument is nothing more than an elaborate hypothetical, and you can't give any rational reason why anyone should think for a second that it applies to the real world.

Demonstrating the IF is all I have been trying to do for almost a year now! ~~
I cannot make you see what I see that you do not see. All I can do is keep plugging away hoping for a miracle and praying for one.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you agree that you might have made a mistake and have offered to delete certain posts, but you don't feel that you have done anything that warrants an apology?

I agree that I might have made a mistake in some things I said and I offered to delete certain posts, but given all that happened that caused this in the first place I do not feel that I owe an apology. Were I to apologize I would also expect an apology, but I do not expect that so I am happy to let bygones be bygones and move on. I do not live in the past, I live in the present.

So when you said, "I never said you had committed those fallacies," you actually meant, "I think you have committed those fallacies sometimes."

I cannot say what I meant unless I see the particular posts but like I just said, I do not live in the past.

Not married, but I am in a long term relationship. De facto, if you will.

And no, I don't know what you mean, because my girlfriend and I have a healthy relationship where we don't feel the need to constantly bring up what happened in the past because we can actually deal with it like mature adults.

I am happy for you. Good relationships are not always easy to come by.

Perhaps next time you can discuss it in private with the staff rather than airing your dirty laundry in public.

I did not want to air it here, or anywhere, but the other party would not let go of it.
I want to drop it now but we'll see what happens from here on in.

 

[rational experiences]

Everyone is a human.

We are all standing on O planet earths body. Equal.

If you agree to the basic advice then there is no argument.

Surrounding the earth is a heavenly mass.

You either respect natural life or you theory against it.

As first every single human today arguing is and was a baby.

You own as an adult human two human parents who had sex.

You are completely informed in your natural life you were a sperm ovary human a baby a toddler a child a teenager then Inherit the two human adult life one of.

Science does not in any thesis own the stages of natural history man self body development.

Two humans created one human.

Words human.
Thinking human.
Body human.

You know exactly you are not the planets mass. A planets mass a planet.

You know exactly you aren't the body heavens sitting in space.

There is no story.

Blatantly put humans just need to shut up.

Stop it.

Stop theorising atheist human who theorised all of your stories as human tellers.

A human the human. Instead you give a human hierarchy they don't own.

You pretend that something other than a human told you. A human only told you as the human.

Something other is what you personally aren't.

So in fact it's lying by conditions you don't own the bodies you discussed.

Instead a human says. Once the earth mass converted into a nuclear reaction. Advice direct is the nuclear reaction...or a nuclear reaction direct.

Not a thesis about anything else it's direct only.

It's where life began he lies.

Life dies in the nuclear reaction as the human.

So he'll argue twenty four hours of the day. Then he put his argument programmed in an AI satellite mind contact. By computer heard recorded human voices ....To try to force submit all minds to hear his machine used agreement.

Exactly what he chose. Which proved he knows it's not real.

He knew he had to try to force submit the conscious mind by machine Ai programs.

 

[samtonga43]

Demonstrating the IF is all I have been trying to do for almost a year now! ~~
I cannot make you see what I see that you do not see. All I can do is keep plugging away hoping for a miracle and praying for one.

Your ‘plugging away’, as you put, it is to your detriment, and to no one else’s.
And not one of us can make you see what we see that you do not see.

 

[samtonga43]

I agree that I might have made a mistake in some things I said

So how about an apology for your mistake in accusing me of stalking? Are you woman enough?

and I offered to delete certain posts, but given all that happened that caused this in the first place I do not feel that I owe an apology. Were I to apologize I would also expect an apology,

All that happened? Evidence, please.
What would you expect an apology for.

but I do not expect that so I am happy to let bygones be bygones and move on. I do not live in the past, I live in the present.

Me too. My present incorporates your false accusations of stalking. An apology would help.

I did not want to air it here, or anywhere, but the other party would not let go of it.
I want to drop it now but we'll see what happens from here on in.

You did not want to, but you did? So, is someone forcing you against your will to malign someone’s character on an open internet forum?
Do you really think that the person whose character you malign by saying that she is a stalker is going to say nothing about your false accusations?
Do you think you can say whatever you like, just because you feel like it? There are consequences for our actions, Tb. I hope you have learned a valuable lesson here.

Of course you want to drop it now. That is understandable.
I will drop it when you apologize. That too is understandable.

Thank you to all who have supported me during this fiasco. No apology yet from Tb yet of course, but one never knows. I think it was Michelle Obama who, when speaking of honesty and integrity – said that “The truth matters... you don't take shortcuts or play by your own set of rules”.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your ‘plugging away’, as you put, it is to your detriment, and to no one else’s.
And not one of us can make you see what we see that you do not see.

So everyone else can see what I cannot see? How do you think they can see it?

How do you think you know what is to my detriment?
How do you think you know what is to the detriment or other people?
How do you think you know what I can see?
Are you God?

What people can see is that you cannot control yourself. What they can see is that you continue to be obsessed with me. It is all in black and white for everyone to see.

Why does my 'plugging away' bother you so much? That is what you should be asking yourself. All you ever do is talk about me, and so the pattern continues as before. You cannot talk about yourself, all you can so is talk about me. That is called an obsession.

If @Tiberius wants to post to me I will post to him. Like everyone else, he has free will to choose. It is his decision as to whether what I say has any benefit for him, it is none of your business.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[Tiberius]

No, it is not valid.

It was valid enough for you in post 5810.

You were saying that the claims in your writings are evidence that support your claim to be a fire-breathing dragon.
I am not saying that the claims in Baha'u'llah's writings are evidence that support His claim to be a Messenger of God.
There is no double standard.

Okay, then if the evidence that supports Mr B's claim to be a messenger from God is NOT in the writings, where is this evidence?

Since you've declared that the evidence is not in his writings, you should not need to refer to the writings at all.

 

[Tiberius]

That's right, but one can tell one way or the other without verifying it.

No, one can't.

If it is not verified, one can't tell for sure that one has the truth, can one?

That's right, and the same applies to God and Baha'u'llah. Even if that knowledge can't be determined at that time, it will be determined after you die and pass to the next world. It is best to get in on the ground floor, but Baha'u'llah said that some fruit does not ripen until it falls from the tree. At least when you die you will remember what I have told you and that will give you a leg up in recognizing Baha'u'llah in the next world.

Once again, you completely change your position on a topic.

Does it surprise you that people find you hard to believe when your constant changing of viewpoints suggests that even YOU don't actually believe what you say?

Demonstrating the IF is all I have been trying to do for almost a year now! ~~

It doesn't seem that you've done a very good job then.

I cannot make you see what I see that you do not see. All I can do is keep plugging away hoping for a miracle and praying for one.

Miracles don't happen, prayer is useless.