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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Tiberius said:
Why not?
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Why not? Because the sample of your own writing is NOT evidence that backs up your claim.

I, Tiberius, hereby claim that I can turn into a giant, fire-breathing dragon at will!

And as evidence to back up this claim,. I will present a sample of my own writing.

And lo, they did behold that even as they watched, Tiberius began to change his form, and soon he no longer appeared to them as a person, but as a dragon of giant size. He opened his mouth which was filled with fearsome teeth, and a great flame came forth.

Look at that! I made a claim and presented my own writing as evidence which clearly states that my claim is true. I guess you have no choice but to believe that I can turn into a giant dragon now, since the evidence I presented was identical in nature to that which Mr B presented to support the claims he made!
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Tiberius said:
I dunno. You are the one who said he was stalking you (post 5764), and posted a definition that said that stalking would cause fear in the person being stalked (post 5811).

So, if he is stalking you, then you must be experiencing fear. If you are not experiencing fear, you can not claim he is stalking you, and I think you owe him a very profound apology.
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No, the definition says "might cause a reasonable person to experience fear."

Moreover, nowhere did I say everything in the definition of stalking that I posted applied to the poster in question.
I only posted the definition to convey what it might feel like to be stalked by someone.
Tiberius said:
As I've said, the vast majority of my posts here are in response to yours. Anyone looking at a history of my posts would certainly get the impression I am concentrating my attention on you.
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That is true, but it is not unwanted or obsessive attention, following, harassing, or monitoring behavior.
Tiberius said:
Also, I have responded to posts written by you that you did not direct at me. And I have many times agreed with the people who have criticized you.
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That is true, but it is not unwanted or obsessive attention, following, harassing, or monitoring behavior. And it has not all been negative. Moreover, what you said was within the context of a discussion you have been having with me, it was not just out of the blue, as stalkers appear.
Tiberius said:
I have also criticized what I see as a lack of scientific literacy on your part, as well as what I take to be very poor logic skills.

Yet, despite this, you do not see me as stalking you.
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Criticizing is not stalking. Stalking is unwanted or obsessive attention, following, harassing, or monitoring behavior. If I did not want to talk to you, despite your criticisms, I would not be talking to you.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Tiberius said:
No, my point was that IF there was a God who knows the future with 100% accuracy, then we can not have free choice.
  1. God knows the future, we have no free choice, we can not be held accountable for what we do.
  2. God does not know the future, humans can freely chose what they will do, and no one can see their choices with 100% accuracy ahead of time.
We can choose Option 1 or option 2, but choosing one eliminates all aspects of the other.
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We will choose to do what God knows we will choose because God is all-knowing so God knows what we will choose, but God's knowledge is not what causes us to choose what we choose. Free will is why we choose what we choose.

What God knows is not the cause of what we choose to do.
God knows the future because God is all-knowing so God has foreknowledge, but that foreknowledge does not cause the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God...
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

God is only responsible for what God actually does. Humans are fully accountable for what they choose to do because God gave humans free will to choose.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Tiberius said:
So there's no way to tell one way or another.
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I said there is no way to verify it, I did not say there's no way to 'tell' one way or another.
Tiberius said:
I would say that an objective fact is an objective fact, regardless of whether we have the ability to determine it or not.

Five hundred years ago, it was an objective fact that nuclear reactions were taking place within the sun, even if that knowledge couldn't be determined at that time.
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It can be an objective truth if it is objectively true, but it cannot be an objective fact unless it can be proven to be true. That nuclear reactions were taking place within the sun was proven as a fact, but Baha'u'llah getting messages from God can never be proven as a fact.

fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact
Tiberius said:
In any case, your argument here all hinges on that very first word: IF.
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It sure does. ;)
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Tiberius said:
So you felt like you were being stalked, but you do NOT feel that he was doing anything criminal, even though the definition you yourself posted stated that stalking was considered a crime in many places.
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That's right. A feeling is just a feeling. I only posted the definition to convey what it feels like to be stalked.
Tiberius said:
I have to point out that I find your apology here more than a little insincere, considering that you have done pretty much the exact same thing to me on several occasions: specifically, posted a definition of something, and then when I say that I have not done the thing you defined, you say, "I never said you had been doing it."

In short, you have demonstrated a pattern of behaviour that you are presently continuing.
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I did not make an apology. I offered to delete posts that referred to stalking once she identifies them.

Sometimes I said: "I never said you had been doing it." but sometimes I posted the fallacies because I thought you were actually committing them.

In any case, I do not live in the past so I do not want to discuss what I did in the past. It is unhealthy to bring up the past and it only causes bad feelings. If you were ever married you would understand what I mean. ;)

I think it is best that we drop this conversation about stalking. I told the poster I did not want to discuss this anymore, so I will consider it something in the past if she accepts my offer to delete the posts. If she does not accept that then it will be her own fault for keeping this going.
 
samtonga43

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Tb. 5806
ME: Tb’s mantra
But I only said X; I did not say Y.
But I did not do X; I only did Y.
Ad Nauseam

Tb. 5811
Stalking is unwanted or obsessive attention, following, harassing, or monitoring behavior that might cause a reasonable person to experience fear.
what does a stalker do - Google Search
You (Tiberius) are not a stalker because you are not giving me unwanted or obsessive attention, following me, harassing me, or monitoring me.
ME:The implication here is that I am a stalker because I am giving you unwanted or obsessive attention, following you, harassing you, or monitoring you.
SO, can you please provide evidence of my:
Following you?
Harassing you?
Monitoring you?

Tb. 5814
I am not afraid of your threats but I will remove the posts that reference stalking if you want to provide me the post numbers because I have no need for the posts to remain.
ME: That is your job.
Tb I will not apologize because I did nothing wrong.
ME: You accused me, on a public forum, of stalking you, but completely failed to provide any sort of meaningful evidence of this ‘stalking’. And you believe you did nothing wrong?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Tb I was just defending myself for your constant and vicious criticism.
ME: This is how 5-year-olds react.
Mom: You should not have done that, Billy!
Billy: But Mom, I was just………….!
I don’t suppose you have evidence to support your accusation of my "constant and vicious criticism"?

Tb. 5816
I did not accuse anyone of a crime.
ME: You accused me of stalking you on an Internet forum. Cyberstalking is a crime.

Tb. 5825
I did not accuse anyone of cyberstalking. I only pointed out that it exists.
ME: You are either very naïve or you lack insight. Maybe a bit of both.

Tb. 5843
I only posted the definition to convey what it might feel like to be stalked by someone.
ME: You posted it in a post addressed to me. Did you post the definition to the wrong person? Did you mean it for Tiberius, Policy, Sheldon (for example)?

This hole you’re digging, Tb, is becoming an endless embarrassment.
 
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